Ceres Games

UrWelt Engine => Script System => Topic started by: Dark_Ansem on November 17, 2018, Saturday, 07:46 pm

Title: Please avoid these mistakes with your UrWelt editor
Post by: Dark_Ansem on November 17, 2018, Saturday, 07:46 pm
so, I've modded for a number of games and people around, and, like the dear local Druid recommended, I am going to list the most annoying things that happened with every editor I have experience of.

[/size][/list]
Title: Please avoid these mistakes with your UrWelt editor
Post by: Andronius The Druid on November 17, 2018, Saturday, 08:00 pm
Constructive feedback is always welcome. Thanks for taking the time to share your ideas. If somebody else has suggestions, Editor Tutorial ideas, experiences with other Editors/tools, life-quality improvements ideas, or any comments regarding modding, they can also post them here.
Title: Please avoid these mistakes with your UrWelt editor
Post by: Dark_Ansem on November 17, 2018, Saturday, 08:05 pm
Want me to post the details of Sound Effects and Encounters from Aurora?
Title: Please avoid these mistakes with your UrWelt editor
Post by: Andronius The Druid on November 18, 2018, Sunday, 12:04 am
Want me to post the details of Sound Effects and Encounters from Aurora?
:D Please do, if you think it might help. All constructive feedback (including what you guys didn't like/were dissapointed about other editors) is welcome, so hopefully we avoid those shortcomings. In my case, for instance, I have +400 hours on DoS2 GMMode, and had fun DMing some campaings there and playing others, but did find a bit annoying the fact that only a handful of the monsters/creatures from the main game were readily available in the GMM. People had to make great efforts to bring the main game assets and maps into the GMM. Thankfully, our tools will have already there every single asset at our disposal, and the flexibility to "craft" or import your own assets, maps, monsters, NPCs etc.
Title: Please avoid these mistakes with your UrWelt editor
Post by: Dark_Ansem on November 18, 2018, Sunday, 01:43 am
There you go :)

Encounters: https://nwnlexicon.com/index.php?title=Maxam_-_Introduction_To_Encounters

This is already good, although it could actually improve significantly with more GUI variables (like, run at night etc). And of course encounters provide a bit more variable experiences than handcrafting creatures here in there, can be respawnable at spawn points etc...

Sounds: look here https://neverwintervault.org/rolovault/projects/nwn1/other/618/Dezmodian1084583690156Manual.pdf
Pages 70-73 in Adobe...

Imagespace: https://www.creationkit.com/index.php?title=ImageSpace#Overview
Imagespace Modifier: https://www.creationkit.com/index.php?title=ImageSpace_Modifiers

Title: Please avoid these mistakes with your UrWelt editor
Post by: Pathfinder on November 18, 2018, Sunday, 09:00 am
This is only maybe loosely for topic but:

- If possible please make in the game for option to "pin" notepad notes in game (world) map like in NWN. Allso option to write and edit your own "Journal". In NWN journal was simple just "YourPCname.txt" and you were able to write what ever you want there.

Reasons for this request are:
In many games you discover places, get quest and so on. And you might get many of them. So if I can put little "pins" in the map like "remember to get back later and try to pick this one lock again when level up" or "I find bear marks here at a tree but they were old, maybe I can find honey during summer so remember to come back and check" kind of things.

Allso for PC journal => you might want to keep track of what you do, sure you most likely get quest log but still. You can write what ever you want to or write nothing. But for me it was allways really nice to write own notes like where I find what things, what date it was, how I felt when I encountered some NPC (and maybe reason for that). After all if you in game have encountered someone yesterday but in real life had to work for a month outside country and when get back and start playing.. ..it get a bit hard to remember "what you say yesterday"  :lol:

- Naturally it would be great to have option to write (small) description for PC and NPC's allso (so you can "inspect" NPC / PC if we get multiplayer or just because you want to see "how other people see" your PC just like you can inspect any other item)

Then some (really random) ideas for game engine:
- In NWN I really loved how you were able to customize and make make new things. For example we had in our PW a wizard tower, if you had good enough spot skill you were able to discover a hidden (underground) path (you get option to get transferred there if you so choose). Then you find a door, if you whisper pass phrase you were able to open that door (for small amount of time) and it would lock after soon enough. So small little things what you can combine make perfection.

- Same for items you can put out there, for example in one dungen I created some torches at a wall, you were able to put them off or on and after some long corridor you find a really sturdy door. Yes, you were able to hack it down (if you make like 1000 damage against damage resistance 5 or so) OR if you were smart you did find a key at near torch holder at a wall when you tried to turn it off / on and find that you were able to turn it sideways and get a key.

- Ability checks. It is allways really REALLY nice to see little touches, like when you find an "normal" dungeon where are some splashes of blood claw marks and fur near altar, if you study them you might find an little description based on your search skill and if your let's say animal empathy / wilderness lore or something like that skill is high enough you might think that action is unnatural for animal and when you finally encounter it you have option to try and heal it instead of just kill it at it's cage (where you have to go through if you want to go other side)*1. Now healing might actually just transfer you other side of the cage and let you go pass the danger, or it might give you (if you are let's say a druid) animal companion because that dangerous animal were actually trying to protect it's offspring or what ever.

*1 Yes, I know, these "skills" were made up / taken from different RPG's, but you do get my point.
Title: Please avoid these mistakes with your UrWelt editor
Post by: Dark_Ansem on November 18, 2018, Sunday, 10:01 am
This is only maybe loosely for topic but:

- If possible please make in the game for option to "pin" notepad notes in game (world) map like in NWN. Allso option to write and edit your own "Journal". In NWN journal was simple just "YourPCname.txt" and you were able to write what ever you want there.

Reasons for this request are:
In many games you discover places, get quest and so on. And you might get many of them. So if I can put little "pins" in the map like "remember to get back later and try to pick this one lock again when level up" or "I find bear marks here at a tree but they were old, maybe I can find honey during summer so remember to come back and check" kind of things.

Allso for PC journal => you might want to keep track of what you do, sure you most likely get quest log but still. You can write what ever you want to or write nothing. But for me it was allways really nice to write own notes like where I find what things, what date it was, how I felt when I encountered some NPC (and maybe reason for that). After all if you in game have encountered someone yesterday but in real life had to work for a month outside country and when get back and start playing.. ..it get a bit hard to remember "what you say yesterday"  :lol:

- Naturally it would be great to have option to write (small) description for PC and NPC's allso (so you can "inspect" NPC / PC if we get multiplayer or just because you want to see "how other people see" your PC just like you can inspect any other item)

Then some (really random) ideas for game engine:
- In NWN I really loved how you were able to customize and make make new things. For example we had in our PW a wizard tower, if you had good enough spot skill you were able to discover a hidden (underground) path (you get option to get transferred there if you so choose). Then you find a door, if you whisper pass phrase you were able to open that door (for small amount of time) and it would lock after soon enough. So small little things what you can combine make perfection.

- Same for items you can put out there, for example in one dungen I created some torches at a wall, you were able to put them off or on and after some long corridor you find a really sturdy door. Yes, you were able to hack it down (if you make like 1000 damage against damage resistance 5 or so) OR if you were smart you did find a key at near torch holder at a wall when you tried to turn it off / on and find that you were able to turn it sideways and get a key.

- Ability checks. It is allways really REALLY nice to see little touches, like when you find an "normal" dungeon where are some splashes of blood claw marks and fur near altar, if you study them you might find an little description based on your search skill and if your let's say animal empathy / wilderness lore or something like that skill is high enough you might think that action is unnatural for animal and when you finally encounter it you have option to try and heal it instead of just kill it at it's cage (where you have to go through if you want to go other side)*1. Now healing might actually just transfer you other side of the cage and let you go pass the danger, or it might give you (if you are let's say a druid) animal companion because that dangerous animal were actually trying to protect it's offspring or what ever.

*1 Yes, I know, these "skills" were made up / taken from different RPG's, but you do get my point.

All excellent suggestions IMHO
Title: Please avoid these mistakes with your UrWelt editor
Post by: Dark_Ansem on November 18, 2018, Sunday, 12:41 pm
Updated post with ImageSpace references.
Title: Please avoid these mistakes with your UrWelt editor
Post by: Nanashi on November 18, 2018, Sunday, 10:00 pm
If there's a highlight all interactive key (which there should be), make sure there's an option to exclude certain things from it. NWN2 required some very roundabout and ugly methods to hide secret doors.
Title: Please avoid these mistakes with your UrWelt editor
Post by: Dark_Ansem on November 18, 2018, Sunday, 11:44 pm
This is only maybe loosely for topic but:

- If possible please make in the game for option to "pin" notepad notes in game (world) map like in NWN. Allso option to write and edit your own "Journal". In NWN journal was simple just "YourPCname.txt" and you were able to write what ever you want there.

Reasons for this request are:
In many games you discover places, get quest and so on. And you might get many of them. So if I can put little "pins" in the map like "remember to get back later and try to pick this one lock again when level up" or "I find bear marks here at a tree but they were old, maybe I can find honey during summer so remember to come back and check" kind of things.

Allso for PC journal => you might want to keep track of what you do, sure you most likely get quest log but still. You can write what ever you want to or write nothing. But for me it was allways really nice to write own notes like where I find what things, what date it was, how I felt when I encountered some NPC (and maybe reason for that). After all if you in game have encountered someone yesterday but in real life had to work for a month outside country and when get back and start playing.. ..it get a bit hard to remember "what you say yesterday"  :lol:

Isn't this already confirmed, in Update 2: "In addition to placing your own markers on the map, you can also write your own notes into the journal. Realms Beyond gives you all the tools you need to keep your information organized, without holding your hand. Important information is recorded automatically, but sorted by which character told it to you, not sorted by which quest it is related to – this way, you are free to make your own connections and come to your own conclusions, without the game doing it for you"
Title: Please avoid these mistakes with your UrWelt editor
Post by: Claudius33 on November 19, 2018, Monday, 09:26 pm
Want me to post the details of Sound Effects and Encounters from Aurora?
:D Please do, if you think it might help. All constructive feedback (including what you guys didn't like/were dissapointed about other editors) is welcome, so hopefully we avoid those shortcomings.

I can give you my feedback about Electron, the NWN2 Editor in the coming days if you wish.
Title: Please avoid these mistakes with your UrWelt editor
Post by: Dark_Ansem on November 20, 2018, Tuesday, 12:47 am
Want me to post the details of Sound Effects and Encounters from Aurora?
:D Please do, if you think it might help. All constructive feedback (including what you guys didn't like/were dissapointed about other editors) is welcome, so hopefully we avoid those shortcomings.

I can give you my feedback about Electron, the NWN2 Editor in the coming days if you wish.

I'd personally like to know, as I looked at Electron once and said "nope".
Title: Please avoid these mistakes with your UrWelt editor
Post by: Andronius The Druid on November 20, 2018, Tuesday, 11:05 pm
- Naturally it would be great to have option to write (small) description for PC and NPC's allso (so you can "inspect" NPC / PC if we get multiplayer or just because you want to see "how other people see" your PC just like you can inspect any other item)

Then some (really random) ideas for game engine:
- In NWN I really loved how you were able to customize and make make new things. For example we had in our PW a wizard tower, if you had good enough spot skill you were able to discover a hidden (underground) path (you get option to get transferred there if you so choose). Then you find a door, if you whisper pass phrase you were able to open that door (for small amount of time) and it would lock after soon enough. So small little things what you can combine make perfection.

- Same for items you can put out there, for example in one dungen I created some torches at a wall, you were able to put them off or on and after some long corridor you find a really sturdy door. Yes, you were able to hack it down (if you make like 1000 damage against damage resistance 5 or so) OR if you were smart you did find a key at near torch holder at a wall when you tried to turn it off / on and find that you were able to turn it sideways and get a key.

- Ability checks. It is allways really REALLY nice to see little touches, like when you find an "normal" dungeon where are some splashes of blood claw marks and fur near altar, if you study them you might find an little description based on your search skill and if your let's say animal empathy / wilderness lore or something like that skill is high enough you might think that action is unnatural for animal and when you finally encounter it you have option to try and heal it instead of just kill it at it's cage (where you have to go through if you want to go other side)*1. Now healing might actually just transfer you other side of the cage and let you go pass the danger, or it might give you (if you are let's say a druid) animal companion because that dangerous animal were actually trying to protect it's offspring or what ever.

*1 Yes, I know, these "skills" were made up / taken from different RPG's, but you do get my point.

All excellent suggestions IMHO
Agreed. Most excellent suggestions and great ideas, also the Ability checks example. :salute:

This is only maybe loosely for topic but:

- If possible please make in the game for option to "pin" notepad notes in game (world) map like in NWN. Allso option to write and edit your own "Journal". In NWN journal was simple just "YourPCname.txt" and you were able to write what ever you want there.

Reasons for this request are:
In many games you discover places, get quest and so on. And you might get many of them. So if I can put little "pins" in the map like "remember to get back later and try to pick this one lock again when level up" or "I find bear marks here at a tree but they were old, maybe I can find honey during summer so remember to come back and check" kind of things.

Allso for PC journal => you might want to keep track of what you do, sure you most likely get quest log but still. You can write what ever you want to or write nothing. But for me it was allways really nice to write own notes like where I find what things, what date it was, how I felt when I encountered some NPC (and maybe reason for that). After all if you in game have encountered someone yesterday but in real life had to work for a month outside country and when get back and start playing.. ..it get a bit hard to remember "what you say yesterday"  :lol:

Isn't this already confirmed, in Update 2: "In addition to placing your own markers on the map, you can also write your own notes into the journal. Realms Beyond gives you all the tools you need to keep your information organized, without holding your hand. Important information is recorded automatically, but sorted by which character told it to you, not sorted by which quest it is related to – this way, you are free to make your own connections and come to your own conclusions, without the game doing it for you"

It is (thanks for the quote @Dark_Ansem). Here you can read more about The Journal and the Map – an Adventurer’s Tools (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ceresgames/realms-beyond-ashes-of-the-fallen/posts/2319485).
Title: Please avoid these mistakes with your UrWelt editor
Post by: Grammarsalad on November 23, 2018, Friday, 05:04 pm
I only mod BGEE and it's derivatives, but I really appreciate Weidu, a player created utility, which allows me to patch and modify game resources without having to completely overwrite them.

This can be is essential for mod compatibility in BG(2)EE/IWDEE.

https://www.weidu.org/~thebigg/README-WeiDU.html#sec2
Title: Please avoid these mistakes with your UrWelt editor
Post by: Dark_Ansem on January 08, 2019, Tuesday, 08:15 pm
Want me to post the details of Sound Effects and Encounters from Aurora?
:D Please do, if you think it might help. All constructive feedback (including what you guys didn't like/were dissapointed about other editors) is welcome, so hopefully we avoid those shortcomings.

I can give you my feedback about Electron, the NWN2 Editor in the coming days if you wish.

Erm... any time to provide the feedback?
Title: Please avoid these mistakes with your UrWelt editor
Post by: Claudius33 on January 08, 2019, Tuesday, 08:44 pm
Give me a couple of days. RL constraints.
Title: Please avoid these mistakes with your UrWelt editor
Post by: Claudius33 on January 12, 2019, Saturday, 05:13 pm
Things to keep in mind regarding Electron, NWN2 toolset :

It inherits from Bioware Aurora : 
It allows import of 3D models from Blender, etc. as the numerous placeable, special effects, sounds, music, clothes, weapons, animations ... provided by the community shows it.

Plug-ins can be added. I didn’t use them but many good plug-ins are available.

UI can be modified / extended.

As a builder I have achieved several large campaigns (>30 hours gameplay) using standard and community provided material.
A campaign is a set of interlinked modules. Global variables (available thru the whole campaign) can be carried by the PC and companions or stored as Global (actually in an xml file).

Companions can be controlled by the player, henchmen not (as NWN1). Companions are available thru the whole campaign, henchmen only in their module.
A party of 6 (PC + 5 companions) is perfectly manageable. I was able to let the player dynamically choose classes/races of companions while they retain their personality. So, the player could tailor his party.

I made solo campaigns only so I can’t comment the multiplayer side. I am a story teller, scripter and map designer and can’t really comment 3D modelling, sounds, etc.

Map editor: very powerful.  You can easily achieve nice looking areas, 3D, lights, water … However, the learning curve is rather steep, IMO. You can easily manage waypoints, doors, locking, creatures' positions and patrols and associate scripts to events of creatures, placeable, areas, modules such as OnDamage, on Death, on Heartbeat, onEnterConnexion, on Exit ...
 
Script language (C# syntax type): powerful, you can achieve many things, dynamical spawns of creatures, placeables, spell effects, etc. … You can have your own spells or events. Many standard scripts are provided.
Variables:  standard (byte, integer, float, string) + vector (1D) and structure. Variables can be attached to a creature, a module, an area, a placeable, a waypoint, a door, or an I point. They do the job.

Conversation editor: IMO the  strongest point. Neat presentation. Each node of convo can be collapsed or developed for a better view. Each line of the conversation can be conditioned (by one or many scripts combined by logical operators), each line can call one or many scripts. In addition, recorded voices, lips movements can be set if relevant. Moreover, the locutor and interlocutor can be set for each line, allowing companions or NPCs to take part in the convo in addition to the PC and the main locutor. The conversation editor is powerful enough to build cutscenes.
Electron can look overwhelming at first and the learning curve is rather steep. Despite all campaigns made, I am rather far from having used all its features. The embedded help (F1) is ok to start with though.

My main grip regarding Electron is that because of the underlying data structure things stored in a module (like scripts or conversations) are not dynamic. If you make a mistake and fix it, you have to restart from a save before entering the module the first time. Of course, there are bypasses such as console commands, but if Ceres can fully dissociate scripts, conversations and such from map layouts it would be great.

Another grip regarding the bodies. For whatever reasons races do not share the same bodies. Elves don’t share Human bodies. Weird, since the models are 3D. After all an elf is just a tall thin body with pointed ears … Dwarves are just small and stocky. Therefore, things like hair, clothes or armors must be duplicated for each body type … making more tedious and difficult the modding.  To avoid!

Last grip: the Bioware data structure legacy makes things complicated as each line of a 2DA file has a number. No gap allowed, so empty lines must be padded. Modders have to agree on ranges to avoid collisions (one takes rage 3000 to 3199 for his placeables …). Conflicts of 2DA files, scripts, tlk put in a hak (a kind of archive read by a module or campaign), in the infamous ‘override’ folder or in the campaign folder happen and are hard to trap especially for a builder when alerted by a player. Please Ceres make your data model like a dynamic SQL database even if you don’t use a SQL database. 

Nevertheless, despite the above grips and the steep learning curve, I have been able to build my stories with lively companions whose class/race can be choose by the player, a rather long gameplay (campaigns of 30+ hours), a setting that totally forgets the forgotten realms (sci-fi, historical).  So Electron is definitely a valuable toolset.

Hope it helps.
 
Title: Please avoid these mistakes with your UrWelt editor
Post by: Dark_Ansem on January 12, 2019, Saturday, 05:50 pm
an excellent list, thank you.
Title: Please avoid these mistakes with your UrWelt editor
Post by: Endarire on February 11, 2019, Monday, 11:16 pm
Claudius: I think you meant gripes, but I otherwise understood what you meant.
Title: Please avoid these mistakes with your UrWelt editor
Post by: HobGoblin42 on February 12, 2019, Tuesday, 06:03 pm
Things to keep in mind regarding Electron, NWN2 toolset
...
Hope it helps.

Thanks for this summary, very helpful  :salute:
When creating our tools, we always take a look at existing RPG frameworks first. Our relevant content tools are already finished and production ready, but from time to time we check other solutions to find improvement we could apply.
Title: Please avoid these mistakes with your UrWelt editor
Post by: Claudius33 on February 12, 2019, Tuesday, 08:52 pm
Claudius: I think you meant gripes, but I otherwise understood what you meant.

Gripe of course, sorry.
Title: Please avoid these mistakes with your UrWelt editor
Post by: Dark_Ansem on February 24, 2019, Sunday, 02:18 pm
HobGoblin, which approach does the game have to Mods? Neverwinter-night like or the Elder Scrolls like?
Title: Please avoid these mistakes with your UrWelt editor
Post by: HobGoblin42 on February 24, 2019, Sunday, 04:32 pm
HobGoblin, which approach does the game have to Mods? Neverwinter-night like or the Elder Scrolls like?

If you want to change existing elements, you need to replace the related configuration files and scripts with your modified versions.

To add new elements, e.g. new races, spells, feats, items, etc. you can simply add new configuration files that be will be included by the game automatically.
Title: Please avoid these mistakes with your UrWelt editor
Post by: Dark_Ansem on February 24, 2019, Sunday, 04:45 pm
HobGoblin, which approach does the game have to Mods? Neverwinter-night like or the Elder Scrolls like?

If you want to change existing elements, you need to replace the related configuration files and scripts with your modified versions.

To add new elements, e.g. new races, spells, feats, items, etc. you can simply add new configuration files that be will be included by the game automatically.

So it's a bit of a hybrid? New materials and stuff can be picked up automatically but won't appear in a game unless placed or replacing something?

Is there a dynamic database of sorts?

What about ruleset changes?
Title: Please avoid these mistakes with your UrWelt editor
Post by: Grammarsalad on March 06, 2019, Wednesday, 07:28 am
HobGoblin, which approach does the game have to Mods? Neverwinter-night like or the Elder Scrolls like?

If you want to change existing elements, you need to replace the related configuration files and scripts with your modified versions.

To add new elements, e.g. new races, spells, feats, items, etc. you can simply add new configuration files that be will be included by the game automatically.

So it's a bit of a hybrid? New materials and stuff can be picked up automatically but won't appear in a game unless placed or replacing something?

Is there a dynamic database of sorts?

What about ruleset changes?

My guess is that would be a matter of changing existing elements, by replacing existing files and/or scripts...
Title: Please avoid these mistakes with your UrWelt editor
Post by: rjshae on March 08, 2019, Friday, 03:29 pm
At least in NWN2, for me some of the major drawbacks with the Aurura system was the difficulty of merging different mods, the tendency of module saves to become corrupted, a buggy toolset render engine that causes crashes, and (especially) certain aspects of the API that are hard coded. Examples of the latter include the use of a signed byte to define the class number, a limit of four classes per character, and the cap on the number of light sources in a tile.
Title: Please avoid these mistakes with your UrWelt editor
Post by: Dark_Ansem on April 05, 2019, Friday, 04:11 pm
Aurora was updated with some nifty features: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/75035/nwn-toolset-enhanced-edition-try-the-new-updates-and-share-your-feedback