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Realms Beyond => News & Announcements => Topic started by: HobGoblin42 on November 24, 2018, Saturday, 08:40 pm

Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: HobGoblin42 on November 24, 2018, Saturday, 08:40 pm
 



The world of Argea is vast and full of wonders. While exploring the world map, your group of companions will travel through lush forests, climb magnificent mountain ranges, trek through arid deserts and treacherous swamps, and even sail to long forgotten isles. Your adventures will carry you far and wide, either on the soles of your feet or on horse’s back.

But travel is not an easy task: your adventurers will get tired, hungry, thirsty, and fed up with the monotony of the road during a long journey. Your wizard will have to rest to restore his magical power, your cleric will have to meditate upon his faith; and most of all, after a long day of traveling your entire party wants to take off their sweaty clothes and heavy armor, sit down around the campfire, enjoy a hearty meal and end the day with a game of dice or cards while listening to their musically skilled companion play his lute.

When you’re exhausted after days of travel but still far away from the nearest inn, when you’re lost in the freezing north and need to warm your cold limbs, when the heat of the desert makes you want to wait until nightfall to continue – you set up camp and allow your party to have some well-deserved rest. A campsite can be put up anywhere in the wilderness, but not every location offers the same comforts.



Aside from the elementary feature of resting to recover spells and heal wounds, in Realms Beyond your party members will be able to use the camping time to cook and eat, chat and play games to relax, go hunting and fishing, forage for berries, mushrooms and herbs, treat their wounds, craft potions or identify items, scribe scrolls, and even make music around the campfire. The chances of a successful hunt or finding ingredients in the wilderness depend on the environment, however – you won’t find many plants in the desert, and wildlife is more abundant in woodlands than on the plains.



Camping isn’t without its dangers, either. Hostile groups or natural predators might assault your camp while you sleep, and if you are ill-prepared for the weather, your characters might catch a cold or worse. But camping in the hostile wilderness is a necessary risk to take, because the longer you travel the more it tires out your characters and the more it consumes your adventuring supplies. Eventually, your party will become exhausted, your supplies will run out and you’ll risk starvation and dehydration. Camping lets you rest and take some time to gather food and water from your surroundings.



In order to make your camp a little safer and more comfortable, you can stock up on camping equipment in town before you set out into the wilderness. A kettle for cooking, blankets to keep you warm while you sleep, a boardgame and a musical instrument to serve as entertainment. Camping in Realms Beyond is a game of resource management: you have to weigh the dangers of resting in an unknown area (and risking an ambush, or worse) against the downsides of forcing your party to press on. It adds just one more issue to the list of things you will need to consider before leaving town and setting off to unknown territory.

The equipment and supplies you need to bring with you largely depend on the area you want to journey through. Proper footwear, warm cloaks and a couple of blankets are almost a necessity in the frozen wilderness of the north, and taking additional firewood along isn’t a bad idea, either. In the desert, you should take a few additional waterskins along, as water is scarce and the heat is parching. When and where to rest is always an important decision, too: in the desert, it might make more sense to rest during the day and travel during the night, when it is cooler. If your party is already tired but you know there’s a river a few miles ahead that would be perfect for fishing, it might make sense to press on to get a reliable opportunity to stock up your supplies.

Sometimes, however, you might also wish to rest while you’re exploring a dungeon. Your casters have spent all their magical energy and have no spell slots left, your fighters are wounded and you doubt you could make it through another fight. But resting in a hallway patrolled by monsters isn’t the best idea. Within dungeons, you can only rest at pre-determined resting spots placed in sensible locations by our level designers. These work in a similar way to Dark Sun: Shattered Lands and Knights of the Chalice. Some dungeons might not offer you a resting spot at all, forcing you to carefully manage your limited resources until you get through them. Others might offer you a resting spot close to the entrance, so you can rest before every encounter. This system of resting in dungeons allows us to craft varied and diverse dungeon experiences that all play differently.

 
Goto Blog Post (https://www.realms-beyond.com/exploring-the-world-3/)
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: kanisatha on November 24, 2018, Saturday, 09:31 pm
I have a question about this camping system, which btw I love as a game mechanic. So for those individuals who have been assigned to fishing, hunting, cooking, playing music, etc., do they not get any rest at all?
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: HobGoblin42 on November 24, 2018, Saturday, 09:58 pm
So for those individuals who have been assigned to fishing, hunting, cooking, playing music, etc., do they not get any rest at all?

For this particular shift they don't rest while performing those tasks. But as soon as they finished their tasks (usually 2 hours for hunting/fishing, 30 mins for cooking, etc.), they automatically switch to resting for the remaining time. But that's under your control since you can always assign new tasks before "fast forwarding" the world time.
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: Pathfinder on November 24, 2018, Saturday, 10:43 pm
I wonder, can you use magic (or catrops/traps/familiar/pet/exotic animal like mammoth/ your animal companion) in your "guard duty".
Let it be some spell to alarm or just old simple summon/animate spell with long enough time while rest of your party sleep?
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: Grammarsalad on November 25, 2018, Sunday, 05:26 pm
Also, will skills come into play? It makes sense that characters with high perception would make better guards and characters with high performance would be more entertaining (increasing sanity?) Etc
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: kanisatha on November 26, 2018, Monday, 02:33 am
So for those individuals who have been assigned to fishing, hunting, cooking, playing music, etc., do they not get any rest at all?

For this particular shift they don't rest while performing those tasks. But as soon as they finished their tasks (usually 2 hours for hunting/fishing, 30 mins for cooking, etc.), they automatically switch to resting for the remaining time. But that's under your control since you can always assign new tasks before "fast forwarding" the world time.
That's perfect. Thanks!
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: kanisatha on November 26, 2018, Monday, 02:35 am
I wonder, can you use magic (or catrops/traps/familiar/pet/exotic animal like mammoth/ your animal companion) in your "guard duty".
Let it be some spell to alarm or just old simple summon/animate spell with long enough time while rest of your party sleep?
In my PnP D&D games many years ago I used to always cast the spell 'Alarm' when we camped. Saved our party on many an occasion. :)
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: HobGoblin42 on November 26, 2018, Monday, 03:17 pm
In my PnP D&D games many years ago I used to always cast the spell 'Alarm' when we camped. Saved our party on many an occasion. :)

That's another great example how existing 3.5e elements such as the Alarm spell (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Alarm) can be integrated into traditional computer game mechanisms.
Whenever a new gameplay element needs to be designed, we always look for existing rules/solutions in the SRD first.
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: HobGoblin42 on November 26, 2018, Monday, 03:20 pm
Also, will skills come into play? It makes sense that characters with high perception would make better guards and characters with high performance would be more entertaining (increasing sanity?) Etc

Yes, for every gameplay element, we always try to involve character attributes and skills as much as possible.
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: Rizzo on December 04, 2018, Tuesday, 01:28 pm
Hello,

I love the prospect of more in-depth camping-screen (maybe items that give bonuses also?).

One thing that bothers me is:
Are the hunger and thrist bars going to go "down = better" (since less hunger and thrist are better).
I would think it is more intuitive to keep all the bars in the same direction (full = good).
Maybe rename hunger/thist to food/water?

BR,
Rizzo
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: nichttuntun on December 28, 2018, Friday, 01:45 pm
Hi. I also got a question, inspired by the game Pathfinder-Kingmaker experience I had recently.

The above mentioned game has great potential and some parts of story telling are very nicely woven together to create the impression of a whole, big evolving world where actions matter. But in the end - due to the technical side of the game - it all feels put together by 100 different elements which in conclusion for me breaks the game immersion. The problem there is that most of the environmental cards are very small and there is seldom room for a real exploration and interesting interactive elements are rare. It feels more like playing a short episode of a certain books side. This is one reason the storytelling and the immersion feels torn in many little brittles for me and I really miss the feel of a homogenetic whole experience.

Can you already tell a bit how the player will be able to approach your gaming world. Will there be huge maps in majority to imply the feel to explore a complete and seamless world? That would be awesome because after playing through the first chapters of Baldurs Gate 2 I also felt that the rest of the game just was clued together by more or less incoherent elements (ideas and maps (although those maps were cool for themselves)) which destroyed impression of a "whole" world for me. The elements just were too different to fit into that concept.

Would be happy if your game could transmit an coherent open-world feeling as far as possible where players really got the impression of deep exploration on B I G maps :)

Thank you in advance.
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: Archmage on January 12, 2019, Saturday, 08:31 pm
Are we allowed to buy a pack mule, packhorse etc. ?
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: HobGoblin42 on January 13, 2019, Sunday, 11:03 pm
One thing that bothers me is:
Are the hunger and thrist bars going to go "down = better" (since less hunger and thrist are better).
I would think it is more intuitive to keep all the bars in the same direction (full = good).
Yes, we have the same headache with those inconsistencies but until now, we haven't found the perfect solution. We'll try to improve it in the next iteration of the user interface.
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: HobGoblin42 on January 13, 2019, Sunday, 11:03 pm
Are we allowed to buy a pack mule, packhorse etc. ?
Yes, there will be mounts for transport as well as vehicles.
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: Woozy-Wizard on January 14, 2019, Monday, 01:46 pm
Are we allowed to buy a pack mule, packhorse etc. ?
Yes, there will be mounts for transport as well as vehicles.
This reminds me of Paladin's "special mount" or a fighter going the path of a knight using a horse and lance old school style.  Are you hinting that may be a possibility during outdoor combat?
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: Endarire on January 18, 2019, Friday, 06:42 am
Thanks for explicitly mentioning Knights of the Chalice, another 3.5-inspired game I loved!
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: olegbenloleg on October 03, 2019, Thursday, 11:31 am
Hi, I'm an early backer and just happend to look into the site for the first time. Everything looks just amazing and very promising except one thing: Rest system
I love complexity in fantasy games like Baldurs Gate and especially the Temple of Elemental Evil but I think a rest systems never contributes the slightest bit to that complexity. The argument that this aspect makes the game more realistic is not true for me. I just don't wan't have to have  take care of the right supply of toilet paper in a game because otherwise NPC's avoid you because you did not use sufficent amount of toilet paper. This kind of aspect for me is rathe a pain in the ass ;) than pleasure in gaming. The hole aspect of resting makes the game more tedious than interesting.
I stongly hope there will be a kind of automated system of resting for those who who feel the same as me.
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: RedPaladin on October 03, 2019, Thursday, 10:05 pm
Please do not change the decision. Your camping option is the best! do not change it. I am  backers of the Pillars of Eternity 1, 2. I want to be yours. Thank you very much for your work. Sorry for my english.
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: mąlërfjernér on October 14, 2019, Monday, 05:15 am
At a glance this system seems designed to make a repetitive feature (camping) in rpgs somewhat interactive or realistic, but what enjoyment will this really bring and at what cost? It seems kind of gamey to have to micromanage such a system where your PCs would allow themselves to die of hunger or dehydration, I haven't done this since The Sims..

Don't get me wrong I'm a fan of a fatigue/waylay system in an RPG, but micromanaging resources is a slippery slope when it comes to the amount of actual enjoyment someone would benefit from said system.

EDIT: Would this system be hard to manage if a player planned on running less than a full party, or solo?
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: daveyd on October 15, 2019, Tuesday, 09:21 pm
To me, what they're proposing here does not sound much more involved than the camping system featured in Expeditions: Viking.  In that game, after you set up your party's camping schedule the first time you can automatically use the same options every time you camp.  The only time you really had to change things was when you have a character was wounded or wanted to craft a specific item (wounded characters couldn't perform duties like guarding / hunting until their injuries were treated).  Even in those cases it really didn't take that long to shift around a few jobs.

So assuming that Realms Beyond camping functions similarly to E:V  you won't necessarily have to spend a lot of time micromanaging the different activities unless you really want to.  Remember, the party is only 6 characters max, you're not controlling a whole army or anything. 
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: mąlërfjernér on October 16, 2019, Wednesday, 12:27 am
To me, what they're proposing here does not sound much more involved than the camping system featured in Expeditions: Viking.  In that game, after you set up your party's camping schedule the first time you can automatically use the same options every time you camp.  The only time you really had to change things was when you have a character was wounded or wanted to craft a specific item (wounded characters couldn't perform duties like guarding / hunting until their injuries were treated).  Even in those cases it really didn't take that long to shift around a few jobs.

So assuming that Realms Beyond camping functions similarly to E:V  you won't necessarily have to spend a lot of time micromanaging the different activities unless you really want to.  Remember, the party is only 6 characters max, you're not controlling a whole army or anything.

I guess I'm just unfamiliar with a system like this in practice, and it seems pretty pointless to me personally. I'm just fine with hitting a tent button and letting the game calculate your outcome based on stats/skills or other variables. I can use my imagination to assume that my character ate and drank, that my party took turns watching guard, and the game can notify me if a companion had new dialogue. I think the saying "we're not trying to reinvent the wheel" has been used more then once by the devs here and this seems like one of those times where that's probably a good idea.
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: Night on October 16, 2019, Wednesday, 01:00 pm
I prefer micro management altogether. In old games I always saw the camp or rest button and practically every time you ended spells and abilities 2 seconds of stop at any place and the party was like new even at the distance of one fight to the other (BGI, BGII, IWD , NWN1, NWN2 etc. etc.). In P: KM they introduced a minimum of rest management by limiting it as it should and the party could be managed differently, paying attention also to resources such as skills and spells that should not always be used at each encounter (There is a Camp button that resets all).
So I vote for what you are implementing, but if others don't like it put an option that skips the whole part and can play as they like.
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: mąlërfjernér on October 16, 2019, Wednesday, 02:42 pm
I prefer micro management altogether. In old games I always saw the camp or rest button and practically every time you ended spells and abilities 2 seconds of stop at any place and the party was like new even at the distance of one fight to the other (BGI, BGII, IWD , NWN1, NWN2 etc. etc.). In P: KM they introduced a minimum of rest management by limiting it as it should and the party could be managed differently, paying attention also to resources such as skills and spells that should not always be used at each encounter (There is a Camp button that resets all).
So I vote for what you are implementing, but if others don't like it put an option that skips the whole part and can play as they like.

It seems to me from reading this thread that many people have used similar systems and enjoyed them. I guess my concern was that it seems like a trivial system to expend resources on in terms of player excitement/enjoyment than say implementing a Bard/Monk class - or working on multiclassing or any number of other features that the vast majority of players would much rather see out of this game. That's an entirely different topic that's already been discussed elsewhere though. I'm pretty confident from what I've already seen that this game is going to be kick ass. There are features I'd personally rather see prioritized over a rest system though.
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: Night on October 16, 2019, Wednesday, 06:10 pm
I prefer micro management altogether. In old games I always saw the camp or rest button and practically every time you ended spells and abilities 2 seconds of stop at any place and the party was like new even at the distance of one fight to the other (BGI, BGII, IWD , NWN1, NWN2 etc. etc.). In P: KM they introduced a minimum of rest management by limiting it as it should and the party could be managed differently, paying attention also to resources such as skills and spells that should not always be used at each encounter (There is a Camp button that resets all).
So I vote for what you are implementing, but if others don't like it put an option that skips the whole part and can play as they like.

It seems to me from reading this thread that many people have used similar systems and enjoyed them. I guess my concern was that it seems like a trivial system to expend resources on in terms of player excitement/enjoyment than say implementing a Bard/Monk class - or working on multiclassing or any number of other features that the vast majority of players would much rather see out of this game. That's an entirely different topic that's already been discussed elsewhere though. I'm pretty confident from what I've already seen that this game is going to be kick ass. There are features I'd personally rather see prioritized over a rest system though.

The same is true for me. I have never liked the monk class in any game or tabletop game so I would avoid spending hours of development there. Even multiclassing for the sole purpose of having a character all man army or for having the best max / min ratio or other millions of classes / strange races just to be the strangest character in the world (see vampire, werewolf or similar). The resting system for example seems to me a very interesting thing because it makes the experience more immersive. Having to decide what to take on a trip to face a jungle, a desert or a freezing area is a very interesting thing that I had never seen before. If most people are interested only in the aspect of battles and can face the game in solitary amen. I like this project because it tries to recreate a style of role playing that I have always preferred during live sessions compared to the usual dungeoncrawling.
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: Speculator on October 16, 2019, Wednesday, 08:38 pm
I too prefer the more in-depth camping/survival aspect. The developers seem to trying to get close to table top 3.5 - so imho this is essential - DM's I've known would never allow a team to just wander off  into the wild without any consideration for supplies/terrain/resting etc.... There are so many games out there  that give no consideration to this - I hope the developers stick to their plans  :)
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: RedPaladin on October 17, 2019, Thursday, 05:52 pm
I prefer micro management altogether. In old games I always saw the camp or rest button and practically every time you ended spells and abilities 2 seconds of stop at any place and the party was like new even at the distance of one fight to the other (BGI, BGII, IWD , NWN1, NWN2 etc. etc.). In P: KM they introduced a minimum of rest management by limiting it as it should and the party could be managed differently, paying attention also to resources such as skills and spells that should not always be used at each encounter (There is a Camp button that resets all).
So I vote for what you are implementing, but if others don't like it put an option that skips the whole part and can play as they like.

It seems to me from reading this thread that many people have used similar systems and enjoyed them. I guess my concern was that it seems like a trivial system to expend resources on in terms of player excitement/enjoyment than say implementing a Bard/Monk class - or working on multiclassing or any number of other features that the vast majority of players would much rather see out of this game. That's an entirely different topic that's already been discussed elsewhere though. I'm pretty confident from what I've already seen that this game is going to be kick ass. There are features I'd personally rather see prioritized over a rest system though.

The same is true for me. I have never liked the monk class in any game or tabletop game so I would avoid spending hours of development there. Even multiclassing for the sole purpose of having a character all man army or for having the best max / min ratio or other millions of classes / strange races just to be the strangest character in the world (see vampire, werewolf or similar). The resting system for example seems to me a very interesting thing because it makes the experience more immersive. Having to decide what to take on a trip to face a jungle, a desert or a freezing area is a very interesting thing that I had never seen before. If most people are interested only in the aspect of battles and can face the game in solitary amen. I like this project because it tries to recreate a style of role playing that I have always preferred during live sessions compared to the usual dungeoncrawling.

Night, I completely agree with your opinion : )


I apologize in advance for my English :)..where did you see micromanagement? Everything is very thoughtful and interesting. This is part of the game and its atmosphere. for those who, apart from battles, are not interested in anything, make the option to completely simplify the game. In P. k m simplified the management of the kingdom. Also do in this game. But just do not simplify what you originally intended to do. You will kill part of the atmosphere from this magnificent game.

Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: mąlërfjernér on October 17, 2019, Thursday, 07:57 pm
I think my point has been entirely missed here, so let me try and reitterate.  It's not that I care that there is a resource based rest system - its that there is only a finite number of features a small team is going to be able to implement into their game. When you gain a feature, that means in essence you are not gaining something else, where time and resources could have been placed. Better dungeon layouts, dialogue, or a wider variety of character customization, etc. This system is fine with me, but it is a strange thing to implement when other areas are so under developed, lacking, or narrow in scope at the moment.

A quote I heard the other day watching an interview from a baldur's gate dev was something along the lines of "Great games are great because of all the things they don't try to do..."


Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: Night on October 17, 2019, Thursday, 08:15 pm
I think I understood your point of view, but you are the one who did not understand mine. Personally I am more interested in this system than having 100 races or classes available I am fine with the classes and races that the dev have decided to implement and multiclassing is interesting, but I prefer to have more characters in different roles than many handymen. Regarding the quality of dungeons or dialogues, I do not believe that implementing this system affects the hours assigned to these tasks. I don't think we've ever said that they'll take hours away from each other to implement the rest system, I think it was evaluated as an effort and put into the development pipeline as planned. I also think it is much easier to add classes or races or new tilesets for dungeons or other areas to be explored through DLCs than to redo an entire system of the project.

As for BG3 I have already given up on the project after the first interviews that were done with Larian. I think it will be a surrogate for an RPG made for the mass and not for those who love this genre as I understand it. Then I can be wrong and will wait when some videos come out with the actual gameplay.

I remembered now that in the Kickstarter campaign there was also the distribution of funds with a dislaimer that says:

"While the engine and systems are mostly finished and implemented by now, we still need to fill the game with more content. Success in this Kickstarter will allow us to hire additional writers and level designers, produce more assets and animations, and create a memorable world that will be a joy to explore."

this is the link: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ceresgames/realms-beyond-ashes-of-the-fallen?ref=nav_search&result=project&term=realms%20beyond
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: Archmage on October 17, 2019, Thursday, 08:35 pm
I also think it is much easier to add classes or races or new tilesets for dungeons or other areas to be explored through DLCs than to redo an entire system of the project.


I'm right there with you.
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: Cernu on October 17, 2019, Thursday, 10:41 pm
This rest camping system seems great. Reminds me of Pathfinder: Kingmaker (I really enjoyed this one). I think it is important, because some f the game focus seems to be on exploring the wilderness, so a dedicated and precise resting/camping system makes sense for me.
However, I would like it to be like other features: that is to feel a real sense of progression, and getting better, until my party becomes legendary at that. For example, I could understand that my level 1/low skill party would spend some terrible nights, and hardly rest, in the farmfields 1 km from the village, needing to go back to town regularly to get in shape for some more adventures. But I expect my highly skilled party to go for months in the amazonian jungle, and come back unscathed.

As for you, how should this system be relevant ? I mean, if it has no effects, or hardly any, why waste time with it. Should it remove malus ? give temporary bonus ? allow to craft simple recipes ? Give a speed bonus ?
I love semi realistic systems (and based my whole mount and blade warband mod, Rigale, on creating and adding new systems to the game :-) ), a sense of improving (I think skills improvement should matter, and legendary skill levels REALLY feel legendary, not simply going from +20 to +21, this is bullshit IMHO), and semi randomness, especially in world and crafting. My NWN2 PW, frontière (I am french), was built on these premises.

Really looking forward this game, and glad to be on board, and meet you people. Cheers.
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: mąlërfjernér on October 18, 2019, Friday, 12:35 am
@Night I probably agree with you more than you realise, especially regarding the BG3 comment... We have differing opinions on what should be prioritised, and that's fine. Like you said, mods should be able to adjust, hopefully, many of the gripes individual players have post release, and I have no doubt there will be many areas that need polishing. 
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: rjshae on October 18, 2019, Friday, 03:04 am
The rest system in Kingmaker gets tedious after a while, particularly when you have a higher level party with near zero chance of getting your rest interrupted. Maybe there needs to be a casual camp option, where you just assume a night of rest but don't get any extra benefits?
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: RedPaladin on October 20, 2019, Sunday, 04:46 pm
@Night I probably agree with you more than you realise, especially regarding the BG3 comment... We have differing opinions on what should be prioritised, and that's fine. Like you said, mods should be able to adjust, hopefully, many of the gripes individual players have post release, and I have no doubt there will be many areas that need polishing.
mąlërfjernér, everyone understands you ). You suggest not to waste time on nonsense. This is not bullshit. This is part of the game. An important part of it. Make it easy for people like you. But do not delete what has been done. Traveling on a map without this feature will be the same as in other games. From one battle, get to another faster. This will not be an RPG, this is action. With best regards  ;)

The rest system in Kingmaker gets tedious after a while, particularly when you have a higher level party with near zero chance of getting your rest interrupted. Maybe there needs to be a casual camp option, where you just assume a night of rest but don't get any extra benefits?
I totally agree with you. At high levels, the camp is only for memorizing magic spells and rest, and random meetings on the plot of the game ... improvisation)
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: Vision on October 22, 2019, Tuesday, 06:53 pm
Respecting DD rules,  a spellcaster have to rest during a night to learn new spells and concerning a RPG table, it s not a problem cause the GM can adjust whenever some difficulties to let the campaign go on. With a video game, there s no GM and everything is depending about the time you spend in the game (in an open world)..

That s why it s a bit idiot to respect this rule. You should find some shrine dedicated to your god if you wanna get new spells...
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: olegbenloleg on October 24, 2019, Thursday, 11:51 am
@Night I probably agree with you more than you realise, especially regarding the BG3 comment... We have differing opinions on what should be prioritised, and that's fine. Like you said, mods should be able to adjust, hopefully, many of the gripes individual players have post release, and I have no doubt there will be many areas that need polishing.
mąlërfjernér, everyone understands you ). You suggest not to waste time on nonsense. This is not bullshit. This is part of the game. An important part of it. Make it easy for people like you. But do not delete what has been done. Traveling on a map without this feature will be the same as in other games. From one battle, get to another faster. This will not be an RPG, this is action. With best regards  ;)

The rest system in Kingmaker gets tedious after a while, particularly when you have a higher level party with near zero chance of getting your rest interrupted. Maybe there needs to be a casual camp option, where you just assume a night of rest but don't get any extra benefits?
I totally agree with you. At high levels, the camp is only for memorizing magic spells and rest, and random meetings on the plot of the game ... improvisation)
Your dramatize quite a bit. Maybe you think this makes yout point more convincing but to me it becomes pointles. Just because an RPG misses one aspect of roleplaying it does not become its opposite: an action game. There are still a lot of other aspects like fore example the conversation system. For example by having to choose different options of answers in a conversation or the best character for a converasation I get the chance to become a part of this fantastic world.
A rest System is once you found out how it works just monoton and tedious. This sort o a game mechanic will prevent me, and maybe other people, to become a living part of the game.
Best Regards
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: Lucumo on October 24, 2019, Thursday, 12:22 pm
If you don't want a proper rest system, why don't you just play basically all the other RPGs that are coming out these days? Nothing "boring" or "tedious" there. There are enough people who aren't a fan of the casualization of the gaming industry and their needs get basically never fulfilled.
And that aside, the information about the system is almost two years old. Why all the whining now?
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: Vision on October 25, 2019, Friday, 02:27 pm
And that aside, the information about the system is almost two years old. Why all the whining now?

I m not sure of my answer but definetly, MMORPG are directly coming from RPG solo games , baldur s gate was just a start.. In opening the world, DaoC and Wow literally set the rules (curiously) of the future rpg solo games. From here, there s no real turning back cause the economic system decided for you, what kind of game you have to play, ofc now there s a chance with indie developpers but it s still goes on.. It s difficult to know what concept please customers and tiny develoopers group as Ceres games can t make a gamble on a new type of game. Indeed, most of rpg games has experimented difficulties concerning rest system, for the obvious reason i talked before this post, and now it seems difficult to explore a new type of game with two tier of linearity and one tier for opening world (reducing rest problem / control experience)

There s whining cause it s the fragile part of rpg videos games. My wish is to see more part of the game with interruption ala "dark eye book", asking for choices to the player with an ink painting window describing the environement... 
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: Lucumo on October 25, 2019, Friday, 04:59 pm
It s difficult to know what concept please customers and tiny develoopers group as Ceres games can t make a gamble on a new type of game.
You are missing something really important and crucial here though: Ceres Games pitched the game (including the content and type (which also includes the rest system)) to potential backers on Kickstarter. Backers said: "Ok, I like those ideas, I'm willing to put money down and fund those ideas." As such, Ceres Games has an obligation to fulfill their promises to the people that already put the money down for what was presented. Non-backers have no voice, what they want is completely secondary. After all, if you screw over your actual backers, you basically lose all credibility as a studio (not to mention the morals of the issue). And if you ever want to use Kickstarter again...tough luck. So at best, other backers can propose changes to the developers. However, you have to remember that the silent majority went d'accord with the presentation of Ceres Games. So they aren't even neutral but are in differing weights of "yes" when it comes to the content of the game, which includes the rest system. Under normal circumstances, I wouldn't have written anything and also just stayed quiet and let Ceres Games do their work instead of bothering them all the time but in this case, I felt the need to say that the rest system they showed and talked about is basically exactly what I want - just to provide some counterweight.
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: Vision on October 25, 2019, Friday, 08:47 pm
If i have to balance this kind of game WITH a rest system, i would give a try to balance in first the difficulty settings (normal, hard, etc..)  only affecting the power of "healing" functions instead of touching the hit points of monsters (If you do then you should have a really good reason)
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: RedPaladin on October 26, 2019, Saturday, 08:46 am
@Night I probably agree with you more than you realise, especially regarding the BG3 comment... We have differing opinions on what should be prioritised, and that's fine. Like you said, mods should be able to adjust, hopefully, many of the gripes individual players have post release, and I have no doubt there will be many areas that need polishing.
mąlërfjernér, everyone understands you ). You suggest not to waste time on nonsense. This is not bullshit. This is part of the game. An important part of it. Make it easy for people like you. But do not delete what has been done. Traveling on a map without this feature will be the same as in other games. From one battle, get to another faster. This will not be an RPG, this is action. With best regards  ;)

The rest system in Kingmaker gets tedious after a while, particularly when you have a higher level party with near zero chance of getting your rest interrupted. Maybe there needs to be a casual camp option, where you just assume a night of rest but don't get any extra benefits?
I totally agree with you. At high levels, the camp is only for memorizing magic spells and rest, and random meetings on the plot of the game ... improvisation)
Your dramatize quite a bit. Maybe you think this makes yout point more convincing but to me it becomes pointles. Just because an RPG misses one aspect of roleplaying it does not become its opposite: an action game. There are still a lot of other aspects like fore example the conversation system. For example by having to choose different options of answers in a conversation or the best character for a converasation I get the chance to become a part of this fantastic world.
A rest System is once you found out how it works just monoton and tedious. This sort o a game mechanic will prevent me, and maybe other people, to become a living part of the game.
Best Regards

You propose to remove what has been done. People managed to do what others could not do. It took time and labor of people. This idea has a lot of fans. This is complete selfishness on your part. I suggest for people like you to disable this feature in the difficulty levels of the game. But do not delete. It is well implemented in P km. kingdom management. With best regards.

If you don't want a proper rest system, why don't you just play basically all the other RPGs that are coming out these days? Nothing "boring" or "tedious" there. There are enough people who aren't a fan of the casualization of the gaming industry and their needs get basically never fulfilled.
And that aside, the information about the system is almost two years old. Why all the whining now?
Good answer  ;)
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: Night on October 26, 2019, Saturday, 07:06 pm
@Night I probably agree with you more than you realise, especially regarding the BG3 comment... We have differing opinions on what should be prioritised, and that's fine. Like you said, mods should be able to adjust, hopefully, many of the gripes individual players have post release, and I have no doubt there will be many areas that need polishing.
mąlërfjernér, everyone understands you ). You suggest not to waste time on nonsense. This is not bullshit. This is part of the game. An important part of it. Make it easy for people like you. But do not delete what has been done. Traveling on a map without this feature will be the same as in other games. From one battle, get to another faster. This will not be an RPG, this is action. With best regards  ;)

The rest system in Kingmaker gets tedious after a while, particularly when you have a higher level party with near zero chance of getting your rest interrupted. Maybe there needs to be a casual camp option, where you just assume a night of rest but don't get any extra benefits?
I totally agree with you. At high levels, the camp is only for memorizing magic spells and rest, and random meetings on the plot of the game ... improvisation)
Your dramatize quite a bit. Maybe you think this makes yout point more convincing but to me it becomes pointles. Just because an RPG misses one aspect of roleplaying it does not become its opposite: an action game. There are still a lot of other aspects like fore example the conversation system. For example by having to choose different options of answers in a conversation or the best character for a converasation I get the chance to become a part of this fantastic world.
A rest System is once you found out how it works just monoton and tedious. This sort o a game mechanic will prevent me, and maybe other people, to become a living part of the game.
Best Regards

You propose to remove what has been done. People managed to do what others could not do. It took time and labor of people. This idea has a lot of fans. This is complete selfishness on your part. I suggest for people like you to disable this feature in the difficulty levels of the game. But do not delete. It is well implemented in P km. kingdom management. With best regards.

If you don't want a proper rest system, why don't you just play basically all the other RPGs that are coming out these days? Nothing "boring" or "tedious" there. There are enough people who aren't a fan of the casualization of the gaming industry and their needs get basically never fulfilled.
And that aside, the information about the system is almost two years old. Why all the whining now?
Good answer  ;)

Holy words I am also fed up of always seeing the usual old story of cRPG more and more rail road with the character that looks like a god and that to win just be quick to dodge and hit. A cRPG like this in which the tactics, the management of resources and, from what has been seen for the dialogues, focuses on reasoning and on interpretation choices have my highest support. So I prefer to spend my money on ideas like these from small studios that can be created rather than on big, famous brands where marketing is and "the audience" to choose how to make a game. I have been developing for more than 20 years at the enterprise level of course, but if I could lend a hand I would prefer to help studies like Ceres than Larian in BG3 that I'm so afraid of is a game for "the masses".
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: Cernu on October 26, 2019, Saturday, 07:15 pm
Quote
You are missing something really important and crucial here though: Ceres Games pitched the game (including the content and type (which also includes the rest system)) to potential backers on Kickstarter.
You are missing something really important and crucial here though: backing anything on kickstarter is a gamble. The project people could as well run with you money, and you could do nothing about it.

I overall think the lack of basic updates and PR those days is making people nervous. Come on Ceres, dont give me the shit that you don't have time to post a few screenshots and a few explanations here and then.
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: Speculator on October 27, 2019, Sunday, 08:05 am

I overall think the lack of basic updates and PR those days is making people nervous. Come on Ceres, dont give me the shit that you don't have time to post a few screenshots and a few explanations here and then.

Respectfully there was a brief update on the forums a few weeks back

https://www.realms-beyond.com/forum/index.php?topic=371.0

This update was also on the kickstarter page. My own feeling is that this game seems more like a personal dedication project for the developers rather than a commercial enterprise. This means more time and care is taken and yes there may not be as many updates but that's fine by me. I'd rather back a project like this and wait , than just get another generic rpg commercial throwaway.
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: rjshae on October 27, 2019, Sunday, 10:25 pm
If you don't want a proper rest system, why don't you just play basically all the other RPGs that are coming out these days? Nothing "boring" or "tedious" there. There are enough people who aren't a fan of the casualization of the gaming industry and their needs get basically never fulfilled.
And that aside, the information about the system is almost two years old. Why all the whining now?

With respect, we're not whining, we're discussing. You have to look at a rest system and decide whether it is worth the player's time as implemented. A rest system with interesting events and location risk is more interesting than repeating the same sequence over and over every day of cross-country marching, as in P:K. Wouldn't it be more enjoyable to play a rest system in a risky locale, then just abstract it in cleared or safe locations? Note also they are creating a module building system, and I would like to be able to manage when and where the camp system kicks in.
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: RedPaladin on October 28, 2019, Monday, 09:06 am
If you don't want a proper rest system, why don't you just play basically all the other RPGs that are coming out these days? Nothing "boring" or "tedious" there. There are enough people who aren't a fan of the casualization of the gaming industry and their needs get basically never fulfilled.
And that aside, the information about the system is almost two years old. Why all the whining now?

With respect, we're not whining, we're discussing. You have to look at a rest system and decide whether it is worth the player's time as implemented. A rest system with interesting events and location risk is more interesting than repeating the same sequence over and over every day of cross-country marching, as in P:K. Wouldn't it be more enjoyable to play a rest system in a risky locale, then just abstract it in cleared or safe locations? Note also they are creating a module building system, and I would like to be able to manage when and where the camp system kicks in.

The threat of attacking the camp is not the only function. Rest, remembering spells (you must admit, this is a necessity established by the rules), crafting and more ... At high levels, your vacation will be calmer and faster than at the initial levels.
  I understand that there are many supporters of the simplified version of the camp, and many supporters of the original version. There is only one solution to the problem. Like in P: K kingdom management. Disabling the function in the settings for the difficulty level. And everyone is happy
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: Sapistas on October 28, 2019, Monday, 10:23 am
Resting is a very tricky mechanic in video games and very rarely did it implemented correctly. In procedurally generated games and rogue-likes, games with perma-death or expendable party members (games that are of the last decade mostly) works great, because it usually gives you some limited meaningful choices (think in Darkest Dungeon or Slay the Spire). In story-driven games, on the other hand, is always a tedious and pointless system. Never ever did I liked resting in any kind of these gaems. Pathfinder made it interesting for me, but only in local areas (not world map) because there was unique party banter. When you play a game with a fixed storyline, locations etc, you don't want to spend time bothering with were to eat or fish etc, even if hunger or thirst or exhaustion are implemented in the games core mechanics, because you want to progress the story and the characters and you will never ever lose a party member to mundane stuff such as hunger etc. You will just reload the game or travel back to a village and resupply or whatever and this makes the game a slog and feeling out of focus. I also don't like per-rest spell mechanics in video games. They suck - but this is another topic :P

In any case, I really do hope the devs have a neat idea as how to implement resting and I really hope it works great and maybe as an example for future games - 'cause I like it as an "idea" a lot!
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: RedPaladin on October 29, 2019, Tuesday, 06:08 pm
Resting is a very tricky mechanic in video games and very rarely did it implemented correctly. In procedurally generated games and rogue-likes, games with perma-death or expendable party members (games that are of the last decade mostly) works great, because it usually gives you some limited meaningful choices (think in Darkest Dungeon or Slay the Spire). In story-driven games, on the other hand, is always a tedious and pointless system. Never ever did I liked resting in any kind of these gaems. Pathfinder made it interesting for me, but only in local areas (not world map) because there was unique party banter. When you play a game with a fixed storyline, locations etc, you don't want to spend time bothering with were to eat or fish etc, even if hunger or thirst or exhaustion are implemented in the games core mechanics, because you want to progress the story and the characters and you will never ever lose a party member to mundane stuff such as hunger etc. You will just reload the game or travel back to a village and resupply or whatever and this makes the game a slog and feeling out of focus. I also don't like pre-rest spell mechanics in video games. They suck - but this is another topic :P

In any case, I really do hope the devs have a neat idea as how to implement resting and I really hope it works great and maybe as an example for future games - 'cause I like it as an "idea" a lot!
The camp system was implemented more than a year ago. What we want, or, in a selfish opinion, they want to remove from the game what they do not like, is too late to ask and reflect. It is already there. I want the rest or not, like in children. A camp system was proposed prior to fundraising. All etol suited! Why ask for what is not feasible. Or do you think that any person’s desire is law and respect? Yes. I agree. BUT then what will we do with the desires of other people? They also invested money, and they are satisfied with what has already been implemented! The delirium of egoists is not a topic. A choice was suggested in the difficulty mode at the beginning of the game. There is no other way. Understand, everyone here loves themselves. I am sure that the developers will take this into account.
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: Sapistas on December 22, 2019, Sunday, 09:54 pm
Resting is a very tricky mechanic in video games and very rarely did it implemented correctly. In procedurally generated games and rogue-likes, games with perma-death or expendable party members (games that are of the last decade mostly) works great, because it usually gives you some limited meaningful choices (think in Darkest Dungeon or Slay the Spire). In story-driven games, on the other hand, is always a tedious and pointless system. Never ever did I liked resting in any kind of these gaems. Pathfinder made it interesting for me, but only in local areas (not world map) because there was unique party banter. When you play a game with a fixed storyline, locations etc, you don't want to spend time bothering with were to eat or fish etc, even if hunger or thirst or exhaustion are implemented in the games core mechanics, because you want to progress the story and the characters and you will never ever lose a party member to mundane stuff such as hunger etc. You will just reload the game or travel back to a village and resupply or whatever and this makes the game a slog and feeling out of focus. I also don't like pre-rest spell mechanics in video games. They suck - but this is another topic :P

In any case, I really do hope the devs have a neat idea as how to implement resting and I really hope it works great and maybe as an example for future games - 'cause I like it as an "idea" a lot!
The camp system was implemented more than a year ago. What we want, or, in a selfish opinion, they want to remove from the game what they do not like, is too late to ask and reflect. It is already there. I want the rest or not, like in children. A camp system was proposed prior to fundraising. All etol suited! Why ask for what is not feasible. Or do you think that any person’s desire is law and respect? Yes. I agree. BUT then what will we do with the desires of other people? They also invested money, and they are satisfied with what has already been implemented! The delirium of egoists is not a topic. A choice was suggested in the difficulty mode at the beginning of the game. There is no other way. Understand, everyone here loves themselves. I am sure that the developers will take this into account.

Where do I say I demand it to be removed? :)
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: S-man on December 24, 2019, Tuesday, 01:56 am
I am not sure, there might be the option to buy rations (limited by str and money), but what I really remember about resting was the resting system in NWN2:MotB, if you rest you would lose soul points and if you failed you could lose a large amount of xp or die if you managed it poorly. I just thought it would be wrong if I didn't mention it, but there has to be some kind of limiting factor. 

Another option is enemies, resting might also be limited by enemies, but not like in other dnd games(aside from MOTB), I suppose the best example of enemies hampering an ability to rest hasn't really been implemented well in dnd rpgs as they only might attack when you press rest like in bg1/sod/2, iwd1/2, etc.  FE might be the best as resting for too long might lock you out of the best ending or the enemies will just keep attacking on the better designed maps.

Removal might not be in keeping with the tropes of the game, what are the limiting factors of the game, ie the economic limited resources in the story?
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: rojay on December 29, 2019, Sunday, 06:39 pm
I like the system you've set up - can you elaborate on the abilities/skills that will affect various camp tasks? Will there be specific hunting/fishing/foraging skills?
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: HobGoblin42 on January 23, 2020, Thursday, 11:06 pm
I like the system you've set up - can you elaborate on the abilities/skills that will affect various camp tasks? Will there be specific hunting/fishing/foraging skills?

I can't explain details yet, but, yes, those actions based on skills and related character attributes. But character values aside, the equipment is also relevant for the efficiency of your actions while camping (e.g. a fishing rod, cooking pot, traps).
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: kanisatha on January 25, 2020, Saturday, 04:14 pm
I like the system you've set up - can you elaborate on the abilities/skills that will affect various camp tasks? Will there be specific hunting/fishing/foraging skills?

I can't explain details yet, but, yes, those actions based on skills and related character attributes. But character values aside, the equipment is also relevant for the efficiency of your actions while camping (e.g. a fishing rod, cooking pot, traps).
Oh that's awesome. I've always loved it when completely mundane no-value items end up having some meaningful use in a game, where it's up to you to discover that usefulness.
Title: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2
Post by: fantossen on January 25, 2020, Saturday, 06:15 pm
I can not wait to play this game.

By the end of this month the battledemo will come to us?

Keep up the good work