Ceres Games

Realms Beyond => Gameplay Discussion => Topic started by: Dark_Ansem on July 15, 2019, Monday, 10:27 am

Title: Player Dimension: Hero or Group?
Post by: Dark_Ansem on July 15, 2019, Monday, 10:27 am
So, I wonder, is the game built for a Hero with Party or also a Solo Hero?
Title: Player Dimension: Hero or Group?
Post by: HobGoblin42 on July 15, 2019, Monday, 01:56 pm
So, I wonder, is the game built for a Hero with Party or also a Solo Hero?

Generally, for a whole party but technically it should be possible to play with a single hero through the campaign (not sure about some puzzles though).
Title: Player Dimension: Hero or Group?
Post by: Dark_Ansem on July 15, 2019, Monday, 02:47 pm
So, I wonder, is the game built for a Hero with Party or also a Solo Hero?

Generally, for a whole party but technically it should be possible to play with a single hero through the campaign (not sure about some puzzles though).

Thanks Goblin.
Title: Player Dimension: Hero or Group?
Post by: rjshae on July 16, 2019, Tuesday, 04:21 am
Will there be a Leadership feat so your solo hero can attract a cohort, I wonder?
Title: Player Dimension: Hero or Group?
Post by: Sapistas on July 16, 2019, Tuesday, 04:50 pm
As I understand it, the game is in the style of Icewind Dale or Wasteland 2 where you create a party from scratch and this is your "character". 
Title: Player Dimension: Hero or Group?
Post by: daveyd on July 23, 2019, Tuesday, 05:56 pm
As I understand it, the game is in the style of Icewind Dale or Wasteland 2 where you create a party from scratch and this is your "character".

You will be able to create the entire party of 6 from scratch, but they have also said the game will probably have some pre-generated companions that you can recruit à la Baldur's Gate.  It is also possible to replace characters you made with these companions if you want so the party could eventually become entirely new.  Of course, it's also possible to have a party with less than the maximum of 6.

What's not to clear to me yet is whether we'll be able to create new party members after the start of the game.  I think it should be an option but should cost a lot of gold, which increased by level.  So say that a party member dies and rather than resurrect them (which should also be very expensive) you head over to a guild and recruit a new mercenary that you get to make. 
Title: Player Dimension: Hero or Group?
Post by: Woozy-Wizard on July 24, 2019, Wednesday, 04:25 am
As I understand it, the game is in the style of Icewind Dale or Wasteland 2 where you create a party from scratch and this is your "character".
I think it should be an option but should cost a lot of gold, which increased by level.  So say that a party member dies and rather than resurrect them (which should also be very expensive) you head over to a guild and recruit a new mercenary that you get to make.

ToEE had a "guestbook" you could click on the front desk of the Welcome Wench Inn that allowed you to create new party members to add or replace dead characters.  In the late game I usually had some undead I managed to command with my evil cleric tagging along as my posse.  I really hope you can do this in RB.
Title: Player Dimension: Hero or Group?
Post by: Sapistas on July 24, 2019, Wednesday, 09:02 pm
What I mean is I get we don't play a specific hero like the Watcher in Pillars of Eternity or the Baalspawn in BG or the Grey Warden in DA etc. with a personal story and a destiny. We are playing just a bunch of adventurers wandering here and there messing things up. Right?
Title: Player Dimension: Hero or Group?
Post by: HobGoblin42 on July 25, 2019, Thursday, 04:51 pm
What I mean is I get we don't play a specific hero like the Watcher in Pillars of Eternity or the Baalspawn in BG or the Grey Warden in DA etc. with a personal story and a destiny. We are playing just a bunch of adventurers wandering here and there messing things up. Right?

It's something between. It's true, there is not the one hero, but that doesn't mean your characters don't have their story/background.
Title: Player Dimension: Hero or Group?
Post by: Sapistas on July 30, 2019, Tuesday, 04:03 pm
What I mean is I get we don't play a specific hero like the Watcher in Pillars of Eternity or the Baalspawn in BG or the Grey Warden in DA etc. with a personal story and a destiny. We are playing just a bunch of adventurers wandering here and there messing things up. Right?

It's something between. It's true, there is not the one hero, but that doesn't mean your characters don't have their story/background.

Nice to know! How does that background affect roleplaying and mechanics? Unique dialogue? Unique encounters? Unlocks unique stuff throughout the game? A personal goal/quest that gets fullfilled that opens up options or changes stuff world-wise? I'd appriciate if you could elaborate :)
Title: Player Dimension: Hero or Group?
Post by: Woozy-Wizard on July 30, 2019, Tuesday, 06:13 pm
What I mean is I get we don't play a specific hero like the Watcher in Pillars of Eternity or the Baalspawn in BG or the Grey Warden in DA etc. with a personal story and a destiny. We are playing just a bunch of adventurers wandering here and there messing things up. Right?

It's something between. It's true, there is not the one hero, but that doesn't mean your characters don't have their story/background.

Nice to know! How does that background affect roleplaying and mechanics? Unique dialogue? Unique encounters? Unlocks unique stuff throughout the game? A personal goal/quest that gets fullfilled that opens up options or changes stuff world-wise? I'd appriciate if you could elaborate :)

It might be more rewarding to discover those things without spoilers.
Title: Player Dimension: Hero or Group?
Post by: Sapistas on July 30, 2019, Tuesday, 06:53 pm
What I mean is I get we don't play a specific hero like the Watcher in Pillars of Eternity or the Baalspawn in BG or the Grey Warden in DA etc. with a personal story and a destiny. We are playing just a bunch of adventurers wandering here and there messing things up. Right?

It's something between. It's true, there is not the one hero, but that doesn't mean your characters don't have their story/background.

Nice to know! How does that background affect roleplaying and mechanics? Unique dialogue? Unique encounters? Unlocks unique stuff throughout the game? A personal goal/quest that gets fullfilled that opens up options or changes stuff world-wise? I'd appriciate if you could elaborate :)

It might be more rewarding to discover those things without spoilers.

This is no spoiler. Knowing how a feature of the game works is basic information. I'm not asking for specific details, just how backgrounds work. For example in DOS2 we knew beforehand that backgrounds add tags to your character that unlock dialogue options. That's enough to know before starting the game.
Title: Player Dimension: Hero or Group?
Post by: HobGoblin42 on July 30, 2019, Tuesday, 11:28 pm
This is no spoiler. Knowing how a feature of the game works is basic information. I'm not asking for specific details, just how backgrounds work. For example in DOS2 we knew beforehand that backgrounds add tags to your character that unlock dialogue options. That's enough to know before starting the game.

Yes, along with faction standings and regional knowledge, the background/origin of a character may also add new dialogue options from time to time.
Title: Player Dimension: Hero or Group?
Post by: Sapistas on July 31, 2019, Wednesday, 04:47 pm
This is no spoiler. Knowing how a feature of the game works is basic information. I'm not asking for specific details, just how backgrounds work. For example in DOS2 we knew beforehand that backgrounds add tags to your character that unlock dialogue options. That's enough to know before starting the game.

Yes, along with faction standings and regional knowledge, the background/origin of a character may also add new dialogue options from time to time.

Nice! Thanks for the answer Hobgoblin! :)
Title: Player Dimension: Hero or Group?
Post by: Panpiper on August 25, 2019, Sunday, 01:29 pm
Personally, I greatly favor the lone adventurer way of playing, and tend to do so if at all possible even in most party based games. However there are two things that are necessary for that to work. For one, experience needs to be a pool that is divided among the party, such that if there is only one member of the party, the entire pool goes to that sole character. A solo character needs that rapid XP growth in order to succeed alone. The other thing that is necessary is a fair degree of flexibility in choice as to a characters abilities. A solo character needs to be able to cover several roles. A straight fighter will not cut it, nor will a straight mage or a straight cleric. A rogue 'might' do it, but only if all encounters can be solved with guile, highly unlikely in a game with roving monster encounters.

I therefor suspect that this game will be far less conducive to solo character play. We have pre-defined character classes and as far as I know, no means to multi-class. This is not a deal breaker for me, I have still backed the game (belatedly). It is however a failing in my opinion.

My hope is that the game will be sufficiently moddable for something to be created to at least create the semblance of multi-classing. This could be as simple as the addition of numerous other classes that simply merge the skill/abilities of whatever variety of multiclasses one might desire, and double the required XP for that class to level. Three class characters would require triple, etc.. They would get the best abilities of any of their classes at whatever level, but they would still only have a single HP 'die' per level, the biggest of any of their classes. And of course they would not gain double or triple the actions, just double or triple the choices as to what to do that round.

This would permit slow but steady solo play if a player chose. If for some reason this is seen as too imbalanced, increase the XP requirements to level even further. Done.
Title: Player Dimension: Hero or Group?
Post by: Vision on September 20, 2019, Friday, 09:45 pm

I therefor suspect that this game will be far less conducive to solo character play. We have pre-defined character classes and as far as I know, no means to multi-class. This is not a deal breaker for me, I have still backed the game (belatedly). It is however a failing in my opinion.


For most of players, including me, the entire charm remains to create a party with synergy between them and i can t get some satisfaction in soloing.
In a RPG videogame, I can t accept an adventure with a one man army for at least these three reasons :
- I m old player of RPG table, so i enjoy interaction, diversity and nostalgia
- I feel alone in my real life, so interactivity inside a game is kinda helpfull
- I will play for my pleasure AND experiencing difficulty (i won t be extremly proud if i achieve this game with a solo hero...)

What would be a failure to me, is the opposite : i.e, developpers allows a class which overlaps in every different class... In my opinion, developpers workout is to balance class between them.   
Title: Player Dimension: Hero or Group?
Post by: Panpiper on September 21, 2019, Saturday, 11:30 am
As long as the game is moddable, you can play your game, and I can play mine.
Title: Player Dimension: Hero or Group?
Post by: Vision on September 23, 2019, Monday, 05:55 pm
As long as the game is moddable, you can play your game, and I can play mine.

Just skip the wizard class, that s how you can find a real hard core experience...
Title: Player Dimension: Hero or Group?
Post by: Dark_Ansem on September 24, 2019, Tuesday, 10:21 am
As long as the game is moddable, you can play your game, and I can play mine.

Just skip the wizard class, that s how you can find a real hard core experience...

HERESY!
Title: Player Dimension: Hero or Group?
Post by: Silverstar on September 24, 2019, Tuesday, 08:25 pm
Maybe the prestige classes will allow for more flexibility that is missing because there is no multi classing. For example if bladesingers or arcane tricksters are available as wizard prestige classes then you kind of get some of the benefits of fighter or thief without  multi classing though i suppose we wont know how the prestige system works until closer to release.
Title: Player Dimension: Hero or Group?
Post by: kanisatha on September 28, 2019, Saturday, 05:38 pm
Not having multiclassing is such a shame, unfortunately. It brings so much flexibility and range to your party-making decisions. But given that multiclassing is out, yeah it would be good if we had prestige classes available that help make up the difference at least a little bit.
Title: Player Dimension: Hero or Group?
Post by: mąlërfjernér on October 14, 2019, Monday, 12:40 am
Can someone link me to a thread where the devs discuss why they decided on a 'no multi-class system'? I'm just curious to know why they decided to not to add that feature when it brings so much depth and creativity to rpgs of this sort.
Title: Player Dimension: Hero or Group?
Post by: Sapistas on October 14, 2019, Monday, 08:33 pm
Can someone link me to a thread where the devs discuss why they decided on a 'no multi-class system'? I'm just curious to know why they decided to not to add that feature when it brings so much depth and creativity to rpgs of this sort.

Budget :P
Title: Player Dimension: Hero or Group?
Post by: Panpiper on October 16, 2019, Wednesday, 09:12 am
Can someone link me to a thread where the devs discuss why they decided on a 'no multi-class system'? I'm just curious to know why they decided to not to add that feature when it brings so much depth and creativity to rpgs of this sort.

Budget :P

Yea, what he said. The devs specifically talked about it and lamented not having sufficient budget to include it. They wanted to but it just wasn't possible given their limited resources. I cannot recall the thread sadly. You'll just have to trust us.
Title: Player Dimension: Hero or Group?
Post by: Speculator on October 21, 2019, Monday, 04:04 pm
what would be a failure to me, is the opposite : i.e, developpers allows a class which overlaps in every different class... In my opinion, developpers workout is to balance class between them.

I agree. I much prefer the idea of the complete party dynamic , not the lone hero with some hangers on. Also  i much prefef the feeling that the party has several members each with different/unique strengths and weaknesses - this again fits in much more with the type of tabletop  DnD i'm used too and the old school tabletop version the developers intimate they are after.
Title: Player Dimension: Hero or Group?
Post by: Night on October 22, 2019, Tuesday, 09:53 am
what would be a failure to me, is the opposite : i.e, developpers allows a class which overlaps in every different class... In my opinion, developpers workout is to balance class between them.

I agree. I much prefer the idea of the complete party dynamic , not the lone hero with some hangers on. Also  i much prefef the feeling that the party has several members each with different/unique strengths and weaknesses - this again fits in much more with the type of tabletop  DnD i'm used too and the old school tabletop version the developers intimate they are after.

Agree to all!
Title: Player Dimension: Hero or Group?
Post by: MadBeard on October 23, 2019, Wednesday, 01:55 pm
Well, I don't mind there is no multiclassing. Multiclassing in 3.5ed is quite broken and powergamey and I really don't miss it :D
Title: Player Dimension: Hero or Group?
Post by: daveyd on October 23, 2019, Wednesday, 02:08 pm
Well, I don't mind there is no multiclassing. Multiclassing in 3.5ed is quite broken and powergamey and I really don't miss it :D

True, you can come up with some pretty cheesy builds that exploit multi-classing, and we don't really need jack of all trades characters when we can create a party of 6 .  I think the prestige classes will offer a nice compromise though. For example, if you can make wizards become an eldritch knight to let them be able to actually hit enemies with melee attacks without casting "True Strike".
Title: Player Dimension: Hero or Group?
Post by: MadBeard on October 23, 2019, Wednesday, 06:28 pm
True, you can come up with some pretty cheesy builds that exploit multi-classing, and we don't really need jack of all trades characters when we can create a party of 6 .  I think the prestige classes will offer a nice compromise though. For example, if you can make wizards become an eldritch knight to let them be able to actually hit enemies with melee attacks without casting "True Strike".

I agree. Better to have prestige classes that add little bit of variety than multiclass.
Title: Player Dimension: Hero or Group?
Post by: LadyBard on October 24, 2019, Thursday, 05:01 pm
Don't get me wrong, I totally get lone adventurer

but I play party because I can build it up with more beef than lone adventurer. I loved IWD2 and that's why I back this up. I hope you really can do stuff like Storm of Zehir party/adventuring or something like IWD2, but with recruitables.
Definitely NOT in favor of BG approach because then you clearly have only one guy and any other party member from beginning is extra baggage.
Title: Player Dimension: Hero or Group?
Post by: S-man on December 18, 2019, Wednesday, 06:08 am
I will vote for single hero here are my reasons
1: creating more than one adventure is a bit of a chore.
2: a well made rpg can have followers which can be balanced to reflect the game.
3: By having a hero with followers having to build a balanced party with a limited number of followers, you are trying to make due with what you find as the journey goes on which is something I think was great about the bg series (you start with no one and over time assemble a working group to solve the problems).
4: party interaction and trying to keep all party members with different outlooks etc.
5: Followers can be tied to subplots to make the game more interesting, and provide plot hooks.  Given the SIZE OF RB, that would be cool.
Title: Player Dimension: Hero or Group?
Post by: Speculator on December 18, 2019, Wednesday, 08:53 am
I think the developers have made clear it''s the party that is the hero , followin games like ToEE and Icewind Dale. I for one prefer that. The whole story of DnD in my eyes was adventuring together , pooling your skills and power's.  Essentially relying on each other , not having one leader we all follow. Hope the developers stick with what they said.
Title: Player Dimension: Hero or Group?
Post by: Tharagavverug on December 18, 2019, Wednesday, 12:37 pm
You can solo and the main story assumes a central "main char", but you get to create a full party of up to 6 characters. Of course, you can decide to solo the game, but it's not recommended unless you know how to cheese the system  ;)

To address S-man's points one by one:

Quote
1: creating more than one adventure is a bit of a chore.

You consider it a chore, others consider it great fun. We promised full party creation in the Kickstarter and we will deliver it.

Quote
2: a well made rpg can have followers which can be balanced to reflect the game.

Followers like in Baldur's Gate with their own companion quests, romances etc take a lot of work to create. We would rather use the time and effort to create more sidequests that can be enjoyed by all players, without the need to recruit a companion.

Quote
3: By having a hero with followers having to build a balanced party with a limited number of followers, you are trying to make due with what you find as the journey goes on which is something I think was great about the bg series (you start with no one and over time assemble a working group to solve the problems).

By creating a full party from scratch, the player can tailor the characters to his liking. He can also create his own challenge runs, for example a full 6 wizards playthrough or a 6 fighters playthrough, which you couldn't attempt in a game without full party creation.

Quote
4: party interaction and trying to keep all party members with different outlooks etc.
5: Followers can be tied to subplots to make the game more interesting, and provide plot hooks.  Given the SIZE OF RB, that would be cool.

Again, it's a matter of effort and logistics. We only have so many people working on the game, and so much money to finance it. Do we invest our time and resources into companions, or do we invest them in more sidequests?

Player-created party members have backgrounds in RB, so they sometimes offer their opinion on things even if they're not the active talker in a conversation. A bit like Wizardry 8 where your characters would often comment on things.
Title: Player Dimension: Hero or Group?
Post by: Sapistas on December 18, 2019, Wednesday, 09:06 pm
I, for one, believe it's cool that the game gives you a full party creation. Not that I think it's better than the "main char who finds companions" style, just there are a lot of those out there and none of this.
Title: Player Dimension: Hero or Group?
Post by: daveyd on December 19, 2019, Thursday, 12:27 am
IIRC there are probably going to be some premade characters early in the game that you can recruit to your party if you want... But they won't have extensive backstories or lots of unique dialogue; comparable to the NPCs you can hire in ToEE . They'll just be there for people who find creating a whole party of 6 a bit tedious.

Also there's a 7th party member slot reserved for temporary companions that may join you for a quest.

Of course if budget and time were infinite having well developed companions would be nice to have as an option, but I'll be happy enough creating my own party and developing their backstory and personality myself.   
Title: Player Dimension: Hero or Group?
Post by: Braveheart on December 19, 2019, Thursday, 04:54 am
So, I wonder, is the game built for a Hero with Party or also a Solo Hero?

Generally, for a whole party but technically it should be possible to play with a single hero through the campaign (not sure about some puzzles though).

That is really concerning to me when you said that? What? with the D&D rules playing solo and completing the campaign should be impossible !! You have to create a party or else you wont be able to defeat even 10 goblins on the battlefield much less dragons!!! lol

Are you saying that through out the campaign you would encounter only 1 enemy if your playing solo? Because when you play solo no matter what class, you won't be able to handle multiple enemies, even if your level 10 and your enemies are half of that. And I don't think your game is designed for solo play when you show multiple enemies. You've already shown groups of enemies roaming on the map, you play solo and get ambushed your F*****. It's almost as if you have to be 20 levels higher than the mobs to handle them.
Title: Player Dimension: Hero or Group?
Post by: Tharagavverug on January 10, 2020, Friday, 05:40 pm
So, I wonder, is the game built for a Hero with Party or also a Solo Hero?

Generally, for a whole party but technically it should be possible to play with a single hero through the campaign (not sure about some puzzles though).

That is really concerning to me when you said that? What? with the D&D rules playing solo and completing the campaign should be impossible !! You have to create a party or else you wont be able to defeat even 10 goblins on the battlefield much less dragons!!! lol

Are you saying that through out the campaign you would encounter only 1 enemy if your playing solo? Because when you play solo no matter what class, you won't be able to handle multiple enemies, even if your level 10 and your enemies are half of that. And I don't think your game is designed for solo play when you show multiple enemies. You've already shown groups of enemies roaming on the map, you play solo and get ambushed your F*****. It's almost as if you have to be 20 levels higher than the mobs to handle them.

That's why HobGoblin said technically. There are people who successfully solo'd Temple of Elemental Evil and the entire Baldur's Gate series, even though the games are designed to be challenging for a full party of 6. I have no doubts that someone will attempt to do the same with Realms Beyond one day. ;)
Title: Player Dimension: Hero or Group?
Post by: HobGoblin42 on January 11, 2020, Saturday, 06:33 pm
Generally, for a whole party but technically it should be possible to play with a single hero through the campaign (not sure about some puzzles though).

That is really concerning to me when you said that? What? with the D&D rules playing solo and completing the campaign should be impossible !! You have to create a party or else you wont be able to defeat even 10 goblins on the battlefield much less dragons!!! lol

The game allows you to play with one single character, that's what I meant with "technical".  Some quests/puzzles and almost any encounter are designed for a party of six, therefore the chances to finish the campaign solo are minimal.
Title: Player Dimension: Hero or Group?
Post by: Vision on January 17, 2020, Friday, 02:20 pm
I guess Halflings can acheive the campaign but not solo, they need their own Gamji companion,.. at least to make cook  :hug: