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Community Corner => Other Games => Topic started by: Dark_Ansem on September 12, 2019, Thursday, 11:54 pm

Title: Baldur's Gate 3
Post by: Dark_Ansem on September 12, 2019, Thursday, 11:54 pm
Seriously, I'm shocked there has been no proper thread on this.
Excited? Disappointed?
Title: Baldur's Gate 3
Post by: Lucumo on September 13, 2019, Friday, 03:14 pm
Don't care. It's not the old Bioware team (or the old publishing company), so it's Baldur's Gate in name only. It's the same for all series where some other people work on it again after a long time has passed. Shenmue III would be another such, somewhat recent, example. I love the first two in the series but I couldn't care less about the third entry.

By the way: It's Baldur's Gate III :P
Title: Baldur's Gate 3
Post by: Dark_Ansem on September 13, 2019, Friday, 03:26 pm
It's made by Larian, arguably even better than Bioware.
Title: Baldur's Gate 3
Post by: Lucumo on September 13, 2019, Friday, 05:12 pm
Larian and old Bioware are different developers. One should do titles in the Divinity series, the other one should have done a Baldur's Gate III.
Title: Baldur's Gate 3
Post by: Dark_Ansem on September 13, 2019, Friday, 05:16 pm
Larian and old Bioware are different developers. One should do titles in the Divinity series, the other one should have done a Baldur's Gate III.

The other one has been assimilated by EA.
Title: Baldur's Gate 3
Post by: HobGoblin42 on September 13, 2019, Friday, 11:08 pm
I have high hopes for BG III but it's still not clear if they go with turn-based or real-time with pause combat.
Title: Baldur's Gate 3
Post by: Dark_Ansem on September 14, 2019, Saturday, 09:26 am
I have high hopes for BG III but it's still not clear if they go with turn-based or real-time with pause combat.

Knowing them, it's going to be turn-based, I'm sure.
Title: Baldur's Gate 3
Post by: daveyd on September 15, 2019, Sunday, 02:12 am
At this point I'd say I'm mostly indifferent.  I should  mention I am not a very big BG fan, in large part because I don't enjoy RTwP combat but also just didn't really find the story / characters particularly compelling.  In fact I've never even played BG2 all the way through; I did lose some save games from a hard drive failure years ago but the main reason I've never completed it is that I find the combat so tedious, with the frequent "trash mobs", not mention the frustration inherent in controlling a party in RTwP when fights become more challenging. 

I enjoyed the structure of BG1 more than the sequel... The exploration factor & semi- open world was interesting and seemed to be lost somewhat in what I've seen of BG2.  But really, the main thing that caused me to lose interest is the combat.

One might suppose that I'd be  more interested in BG3 if it were turn-based.  That might be the case, however, it depends of course on whether the TB combat is enjoyable, challenging, and the frequency of it. I don't really enjoy Larian's take on turn-based combat in D:OS. I actually grew bored relatively quickly with D:OS long drawn out TB battles that seemed a bit gimmicky with the emphasis on elemental goo spread all over the battlefield. After awhile, every battle felt the same and there were eventually too many of these mandatory battles relative to other gameplay like NPC interaction.  (It was also pretty easy even on the highest difficulty setting, at least when I last played it).  Also, I find Larian's silly over-the-top humor pretty off-putting.  I certainly don't mind some humor in games but prefer it is kept subtle w/o breaking the fourth wall, pop culture references, and things like that.  I don't really have any interest in multiplayer / co-op either and I feel like D:OS was designed with it in mind to the point where playing single-player  felt awkward...

I've yet to get DOS2; it's possible I'd enjoy it more but from what I've heard it sounds like it may have not changed enough for my tastes.

So yeah, I'm not really feeling any excitement but I understand why many fans of BG and Larian in particular.  If I hear overwhelmingly positive things about it maybe I'll check it out someday, but there's lots of other games that interest me more. I wish there were more official D&D CRPGs being made, but I'd rather have something new than just remakes or sequels of the older ones.
Title: Baldur's Gate 3
Post by: IgnatiusJ.Reilly on September 16, 2019, Monday, 01:14 pm
In the absence of turn-based environment, BG III will be rather dull, frankly. D&D 5E relies on various 'reactions' and other character abilities allowing die manipulation to be mechanically interesting in play,  5E's character building is rather simple when compared to 3rd edition D&D. And these aspects of D&D 5E will not function in a RTWP environment, it's an impossibility.
Title: Baldur's Gate 3
Post by: kanisatha on September 16, 2019, Monday, 04:30 pm
I am also indifferent and highly skeptical. Firstly, I'm not in the 'anything Larian makes is/will be awesome' camp because I can't stand the D:OS games.

Secondly, the game is sure to be TB, and that's a huge strike against it for me (though this can be mitigated by having combat itself be a lesser part of the game compared with the outside-of-combat real roleplaying parts of the game which are what I play cRPGs for in the first place).

And thirdly, more important even than the combat system, I fear the game will be first and foremost built for co-op/MP rather than SP, where all the design choices will have been made on the basis of what is best for MP over SP.
Title: Baldur's Gate 3
Post by: HobGoblin42 on September 17, 2019, Tuesday, 12:23 am
Secondly, the game is sure to be TB,..

Is that really sure?
Title: Baldur's Gate 3
Post by: Dark_Ansem on September 17, 2019, Tuesday, 08:44 am
Larian is hailed as the one who resurrected TB.
Title: Baldur's Gate 3
Post by: kanisatha on September 17, 2019, Tuesday, 08:55 pm
Secondly, the game is sure to be TB,..

Is that really sure?
No, not in the sense that Larian has said so. But given it is Larian, and given the expectation that because it is D&D it has to be TB (which I completely reject but whatever), I would put money on it being TB. What is certain per their own words is that the combat system has long ago been definitively decided, and they will not be changing it. Nor will they be providing multiple options for players to choose from.
Title: Baldur's Gate 3
Post by: mąlërfjernér on October 14, 2019, Monday, 04:06 am
If the story, dialogue, lore, npc interaction, and environment are immersive enough, I will accept any combat system in an rpg. Personally, I prefer RTWP but combat is only one facet of an adventure.
Title: Baldur's Gate 3
Post by: Dark_Ansem on October 14, 2019, Monday, 10:23 am
If the story, dialogue, lore, npc interaction, and environment are immersive enough, I will accept any combat system in an rpg. Personally, I prefer RTWP but combat is only one facet of an adventure.

Interesting. Why the RTWP preference?
Title: Baldur's Gate 3
Post by: mąlërfjernér on October 16, 2019, Wednesday, 03:21 pm
If the story, dialogue, lore, npc interaction, and environment are immersive enough, I will accept any combat system in an rpg. Personally, I prefer RTWP but combat is only one facet of an adventure.

Interesting. Why the RTWP preference?

For starters, the predecessors were RTwP and I believe returning players would love see a familiar feel to the game they remember with a world that makes sense, lore that fits the series, and combat fluidity that the original RTwP provided. As an analagy, I hope this game is the dark souls 3 of the franchise, not the bloodborne or sekiro, if that makes sense. I believe the combat system would have a very impactful effect on how this game nostalgically feels, similar to how diablo 3 completely trashed their game by deviating in almost every way.
Title: Baldur's Gate 3
Post by: mąlërfjernér on October 16, 2019, Wednesday, 03:42 pm
This is all obviously my own personal bias, I also hope they don't change the camera angle  :mad:
Title: Baldur's Gate 3
Post by: MadBeard on October 18, 2019, Friday, 04:50 pm
I hope they'll do both RtwP and TB. In my opinion they shouldn't do BG3, because except for name, game will have nothing to do with old BGs since that story has finished. It would be better idea for them to do just an D&D game with their own name.
By naming this game BG3 they found themselves in not so envious situation. If they do RtwP, then D&D fans will rage because it's not faithful to D&D. If they do RtwP, then RtwP fans will rage. If they do both TB and RtwP they are in win-win situation.

Title: Baldur's Gate 3
Post by: daveyd on October 21, 2019, Monday, 01:44 pm
I hope they'll do both RtwP and TB. In my opinion they shouldn't do BG3, because except for name, game will have nothing to do with old BGs since that story has finished. It would be better idea for them to do just an D&D game with their own name.
By naming this game BG3 they found themselves in not so envious situation. If they do RtwP, then D&D fans will rage because it's not faithful to D&D. If they do RtwP, then RtwP fans will rage. If they do both TB and RtwP they are in win-win situation.

That would be ideal in theory, but I think there's important reasons so few CRPGs offer a choice between combat modes. For one, it's hard to implement a single combat system that works well in a game, let alone two.  Only RPG which comes to mind in giving you a choice is Arcanum. And while Arcanum is a classic CRPG which has many redeeming qualities, it is almost never praised for its combat systems.   Arcanum combat really pales in comparison to combat in Fallout 1 & 2. Project Resurgence (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/nectargamestudios/project-resurgence/) was going to let you toggle the combat system but the developer ran out of money. I don't know if that was because of their attempt to create two combat modes, may have just been developer inexperience / failure to manage their relatively limited funds. 

Also, combat tends to be balanced  differently in RTwP vs turn-based games. People who like RTwP have said hat one of the best things about RTWP is it makes dealing with trash mobs quicker and more bearable than in a turn-based system.  Basically, you can go take a snack break while your party hacks through a pack of gibberlings.   In a TB game (unless it has an auto-resolve button) hacking through a horde of weak enemies that require no tactics becomes tedious fast.   So a well made TB game should not frequently be full of large trash mobs.  Now IMO trash mobs are still rather boring in RTwP (main reason I've never completed BG2). You could design a RTwP game to not have them, but I suspect it would still be a challenge to create combat encounters that work well in both combat modes. RTwP creates some added chaos / pathfinding issues. When you cast a fireball spell in a TB game, you're guaranteed to at least hit your intended target. In RTwP you might miss completely because the enemies won't be in the intended area by the time the spell is cast.  Without really good AI it may be that TB mode ends up being easy mode, which would make TB mode very unsatisfying in my opinion. 

Some claim that when you adjust the auto-pause settings of RTwP games, you can essentially make them play like a TB game. But of course there are still major differences. The "turns" in BG 1 & 2 play out simultaneously. The chaos of characters bumping into eachother / not being where you want them to be is still there. 

I think it would probably be a mistake to try for two combat modes.  If you try to please everyone you may end up pleasing no one. 

But I do agree that making BG3 is already a mistake.  The high expectations from fans will be impossible to meet, the game won't have any connection to the first two games aside from setting and maybe the cameo of a few characters... Presumably all the humans will be dead but perhaps Jaheira, Aerie, or  Viconia are still alive?  I'm sure the game will sell well but it might end up hurting Larian's reputation if they fail to deliver.  And potentially make more long awaited sequels of other classic CRPGs less likely.
Title: Baldur's Gate 3
Post by: MadBeard on October 23, 2019, Wednesday, 01:25 pm
@daveyd

Exactly my thoughts. Nevertheless, I'm still excited about the game. And that is just because finally D&D5ed game will be released  :D

Just to digress. There are several games that have both RtwP and TB.  X-com 3: Apocalypse (not an RPG but tactical combat is similar to an RPG), Arcanum, Pillars of Eternity 2 (with patch), Pathfinder: Kingmaker (not the vanilla game but there is a mod).
But I agree. It's difficult to implement both modes and to be interesting and balanced.

Quote
People who like RTwP have said hat one of the best things about RTWP is it makes dealing with trash mobs quicker and more bearable than in a turn-based system.
I never understood this thinking. They like RtwP just to get quicker through something that is not really interesting and shouldn't be in a game in the first place!
Well how about one revolutionary idea: "Don't implement trash/filler fights"  :hahano:

Quote
Presumably all the humans will be dead but perhaps Jaheira, Aerie, or  Viconia are still alive?

Minsc (https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Minsc) and Coran (https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Coran) are alive. Don't know about others.
Title: Baldur's Gate 3
Post by: kanisatha on October 25, 2019, Friday, 11:20 pm
People who like RTwP have said hat one of the best things about RTWP is it makes dealing with trash mobs quicker and more bearable than in a turn-based system.
I am someone who very strongly prefers RTwP and I have never said this, nor heard very many other RTwP fans say this. RTwP makes ALL combat go quicker, and that is what is a good thing (among many other good things about RTwP).
Title: Baldur's Gate 3
Post by: daveyd on October 26, 2019, Saturday, 12:56 am
People who like RTwP have said hat one of the best things about RTWP is it makes dealing with trash mobs quicker and more bearable than in a turn-based system.
I am someone who very strongly prefers RTwP and I have never said this, nor heard very many other RTwP fans say this. RTwP makes ALL combat go quicker, and that is what is a good thing (among many other good things about RTwP).

Well, I've seen people who like RTwP say this on RPG related forums more than once. I wouldn't presume to know what all fans of RTwP like about though. If you have some other reasons you like it feel free to share. 
Title: Baldur's Gate 3
Post by: kanisatha on October 28, 2019, Monday, 05:20 pm
People who like RTwP have said hat one of the best things about RTWP is it makes dealing with trash mobs quicker and more bearable than in a turn-based system.
I am someone who very strongly prefers RTwP and I have never said this, nor heard very many other RTwP fans say this. RTwP makes ALL combat go quicker, and that is what is a good thing (among many other good things about RTwP).

Well, I've seen people who like RTwP say this on RPG related forums more than once. I wouldn't presume to know what all fans of RTwP like about though. If you have some other reasons you like it feel free to share.
Ok fair enough. And since you seem to be sincerely interested I will share my perspective.

As already stated, I find combat to be too slow -- and as a result too boring and tedious -- with TB systems. That said, an even more serious issue for me is realism and immersion. I find TB combat to be immersion-breaking, unnatural and jarring, and it breaks the smooth flow of the game. Furthermore, the mechanic used for determining who goes when in any TB game is arbitrary and illogical to me. I always thought initiative in D&D was the worst of these mechanics, and then I played D:OS and came across a mechanic for determining who went when that was even worse than initiative. If it is going to be TB, then at the very least it should be me, the player, who decides the order in which my party members will take their actions. Also, I believe combat should be messy and chaotic, and things should not work out perfectly in a combat situation. TB makes combat formulaic -- you can come up with a formula for each combat situation of exactly what to do with each of your characters and then follow that formula. It takes away any challenge or interest in combat for me. This is what I did in D:OS. It worked very well every single time, and it was so utterly boring. And yes, to use an example that TB fans bring up for why they don't like RTwP, if your mage casts a fireball, but by the time the spell goes off the enemies have moved out of the AoE of the spell thus causing the waste of your spell, that's EXACTLY how it should be. And lastly, I love the dramatic feel of hitting a powerful enemy simultaneously with various types of attacks from multiple party members to take him down. You don't get that feel from TB combat where each attack is an isolated attack by itself and only a small part of taking down that powerful enemy. Eventually, an attack from one of your party members puts your side over the top and the enemy falls, but it is so very anticlimactic and unsatisfying. There's more I can say, but this should get my feelings across pretty well I think.