Author Topic: Exploring the World #3: Camp and Survival Part 2

Endarire

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#1202 January 18, 2019, Friday, 06:42 am
Thanks for explicitly mentioning Knights of the Chalice, another 3.5-inspired game I loved!

olegbenloleg

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#1839 October 03, 2019, Thursday, 11:31 am
Hi, I'm an early backer and just happend to look into the site for the first time. Everything looks just amazing and very promising except one thing: Rest system
I love complexity in fantasy games like Baldurs Gate and especially the Temple of Elemental Evil but I think a rest systems never contributes the slightest bit to that complexity. The argument that this aspect makes the game more realistic is not true for me. I just don't wan't have to have  take care of the right supply of toilet paper in a game because otherwise NPC's avoid you because you did not use sufficent amount of toilet paper. This kind of aspect for me is rathe a pain in the ass ;) than pleasure in gaming. The hole aspect of resting makes the game more tedious than interesting.
I stongly hope there will be a kind of automated system of resting for those who who feel the same as me.
Last edited: October 03, 2019, Thursday, 12:40 pm by olegbenloleg

RedPaladin

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#1841 October 03, 2019, Thursday, 10:05 pm
Please do not change the decision. Your camping option is the best! do not change it. I am  backers of the Pillars of Eternity 1, 2. I want to be yours. Thank you very much for your work. Sorry for my english.
Sorry for my English )

mąlërfjernér

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#1866 October 14, 2019, Monday, 05:15 am
At a glance this system seems designed to make a repetitive feature (camping) in rpgs somewhat interactive or realistic, but what enjoyment will this really bring and at what cost? It seems kind of gamey to have to micromanage such a system where your PCs would allow themselves to die of hunger or dehydration, I haven't done this since The Sims..

Don't get me wrong I'm a fan of a fatigue/waylay system in an RPG, but micromanaging resources is a slippery slope when it comes to the amount of actual enjoyment someone would benefit from said system.

EDIT: Would this system be hard to manage if a player planned on running less than a full party, or solo?
Last edited: October 14, 2019, Monday, 05:18 am by mąlërfjernér

daveyd

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#1874 October 15, 2019, Tuesday, 09:21 pm
To me, what they're proposing here does not sound much more involved than the camping system featured in Expeditions: Viking.  In that game, after you set up your party's camping schedule the first time you can automatically use the same options every time you camp.  The only time you really had to change things was when you have a character was wounded or wanted to craft a specific item (wounded characters couldn't perform duties like guarding / hunting until their injuries were treated).  Even in those cases it really didn't take that long to shift around a few jobs.

So assuming that Realms Beyond camping functions similarly to E:V  you won't necessarily have to spend a lot of time micromanaging the different activities unless you really want to.  Remember, the party is only 6 characters max, you're not controlling a whole army or anything. 

mąlërfjernér

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#1875 October 16, 2019, Wednesday, 12:27 am
To me, what they're proposing here does not sound much more involved than the camping system featured in Expeditions: Viking.  In that game, after you set up your party's camping schedule the first time you can automatically use the same options every time you camp.  The only time you really had to change things was when you have a character was wounded or wanted to craft a specific item (wounded characters couldn't perform duties like guarding / hunting until their injuries were treated).  Even in those cases it really didn't take that long to shift around a few jobs.

So assuming that Realms Beyond camping functions similarly to E:V  you won't necessarily have to spend a lot of time micromanaging the different activities unless you really want to.  Remember, the party is only 6 characters max, you're not controlling a whole army or anything.

I guess I'm just unfamiliar with a system like this in practice, and it seems pretty pointless to me personally. I'm just fine with hitting a tent button and letting the game calculate your outcome based on stats/skills or other variables. I can use my imagination to assume that my character ate and drank, that my party took turns watching guard, and the game can notify me if a companion had new dialogue. I think the saying "we're not trying to reinvent the wheel" has been used more then once by the devs here and this seems like one of those times where that's probably a good idea.

Night

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#1878 October 16, 2019, Wednesday, 01:00 pm
I prefer micro management altogether. In old games I always saw the camp or rest button and practically every time you ended spells and abilities 2 seconds of stop at any place and the party was like new even at the distance of one fight to the other (BGI, BGII, IWD , NWN1, NWN2 etc. etc.). In P: KM they introduced a minimum of rest management by limiting it as it should and the party could be managed differently, paying attention also to resources such as skills and spells that should not always be used at each encounter (There is a Camp button that resets all).
So I vote for what you are implementing, but if others don't like it put an option that skips the whole part and can play as they like.

mąlërfjernér

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#1879 October 16, 2019, Wednesday, 02:42 pm
I prefer micro management altogether. In old games I always saw the camp or rest button and practically every time you ended spells and abilities 2 seconds of stop at any place and the party was like new even at the distance of one fight to the other (BGI, BGII, IWD , NWN1, NWN2 etc. etc.). In P: KM they introduced a minimum of rest management by limiting it as it should and the party could be managed differently, paying attention also to resources such as skills and spells that should not always be used at each encounter (There is a Camp button that resets all).
So I vote for what you are implementing, but if others don't like it put an option that skips the whole part and can play as they like.

It seems to me from reading this thread that many people have used similar systems and enjoyed them. I guess my concern was that it seems like a trivial system to expend resources on in terms of player excitement/enjoyment than say implementing a Bard/Monk class - or working on multiclassing or any number of other features that the vast majority of players would much rather see out of this game. That's an entirely different topic that's already been discussed elsewhere though. I'm pretty confident from what I've already seen that this game is going to be kick ass. There are features I'd personally rather see prioritized over a rest system though.

Night

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#1882 October 16, 2019, Wednesday, 06:10 pm
I prefer micro management altogether. In old games I always saw the camp or rest button and practically every time you ended spells and abilities 2 seconds of stop at any place and the party was like new even at the distance of one fight to the other (BGI, BGII, IWD , NWN1, NWN2 etc. etc.). In P: KM they introduced a minimum of rest management by limiting it as it should and the party could be managed differently, paying attention also to resources such as skills and spells that should not always be used at each encounter (There is a Camp button that resets all).
So I vote for what you are implementing, but if others don't like it put an option that skips the whole part and can play as they like.

It seems to me from reading this thread that many people have used similar systems and enjoyed them. I guess my concern was that it seems like a trivial system to expend resources on in terms of player excitement/enjoyment than say implementing a Bard/Monk class - or working on multiclassing or any number of other features that the vast majority of players would much rather see out of this game. That's an entirely different topic that's already been discussed elsewhere though. I'm pretty confident from what I've already seen that this game is going to be kick ass. There are features I'd personally rather see prioritized over a rest system though.

The same is true for me. I have never liked the monk class in any game or tabletop game so I would avoid spending hours of development there. Even multiclassing for the sole purpose of having a character all man army or for having the best max / min ratio or other millions of classes / strange races just to be the strangest character in the world (see vampire, werewolf or similar). The resting system for example seems to me a very interesting thing because it makes the experience more immersive. Having to decide what to take on a trip to face a jungle, a desert or a freezing area is a very interesting thing that I had never seen before. If most people are interested only in the aspect of battles and can face the game in solitary amen. I like this project because it tries to recreate a style of role playing that I have always preferred during live sessions compared to the usual dungeoncrawling.

Speculator

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#1883 October 16, 2019, Wednesday, 08:38 pm
I too prefer the more in-depth camping/survival aspect. The developers seem to trying to get close to table top 3.5 - so imho this is essential - DM's I've known would never allow a team to just wander off  into the wild without any consideration for supplies/terrain/resting etc.... There are so many games out there  that give no consideration to this - I hope the developers stick to their plans  :)

RedPaladin

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#1884 October 17, 2019, Thursday, 05:52 pm
I prefer micro management altogether. In old games I always saw the camp or rest button and practically every time you ended spells and abilities 2 seconds of stop at any place and the party was like new even at the distance of one fight to the other (BGI, BGII, IWD , NWN1, NWN2 etc. etc.). In P: KM they introduced a minimum of rest management by limiting it as it should and the party could be managed differently, paying attention also to resources such as skills and spells that should not always be used at each encounter (There is a Camp button that resets all).
So I vote for what you are implementing, but if others don't like it put an option that skips the whole part and can play as they like.

It seems to me from reading this thread that many people have used similar systems and enjoyed them. I guess my concern was that it seems like a trivial system to expend resources on in terms of player excitement/enjoyment than say implementing a Bard/Monk class - or working on multiclassing or any number of other features that the vast majority of players would much rather see out of this game. That's an entirely different topic that's already been discussed elsewhere though. I'm pretty confident from what I've already seen that this game is going to be kick ass. There are features I'd personally rather see prioritized over a rest system though.

The same is true for me. I have never liked the monk class in any game or tabletop game so I would avoid spending hours of development there. Even multiclassing for the sole purpose of having a character all man army or for having the best max / min ratio or other millions of classes / strange races just to be the strangest character in the world (see vampire, werewolf or similar). The resting system for example seems to me a very interesting thing because it makes the experience more immersive. Having to decide what to take on a trip to face a jungle, a desert or a freezing area is a very interesting thing that I had never seen before. If most people are interested only in the aspect of battles and can face the game in solitary amen. I like this project because it tries to recreate a style of role playing that I have always preferred during live sessions compared to the usual dungeoncrawling.

Night, I completely agree with your opinion : )


I apologize in advance for my English :)..where did you see micromanagement? Everything is very thoughtful and interesting. This is part of the game and its atmosphere. for those who, apart from battles, are not interested in anything, make the option to completely simplify the game. In P. k m simplified the management of the kingdom. Also do in this game. But just do not simplify what you originally intended to do. You will kill part of the atmosphere from this magnificent game.

Sorry for my English )

mąlërfjernér

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#1885 October 17, 2019, Thursday, 07:57 pm
I think my point has been entirely missed here, so let me try and reitterate.  It's not that I care that there is a resource based rest system - its that there is only a finite number of features a small team is going to be able to implement into their game. When you gain a feature, that means in essence you are not gaining something else, where time and resources could have been placed. Better dungeon layouts, dialogue, or a wider variety of character customization, etc. This system is fine with me, but it is a strange thing to implement when other areas are so under developed, lacking, or narrow in scope at the moment.

A quote I heard the other day watching an interview from a baldur's gate dev was something along the lines of "Great games are great because of all the things they don't try to do..."



Night

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#1886 October 17, 2019, Thursday, 08:15 pm
I think I understood your point of view, but you are the one who did not understand mine. Personally I am more interested in this system than having 100 races or classes available I am fine with the classes and races that the dev have decided to implement and multiclassing is interesting, but I prefer to have more characters in different roles than many handymen. Regarding the quality of dungeons or dialogues, I do not believe that implementing this system affects the hours assigned to these tasks. I don't think we've ever said that they'll take hours away from each other to implement the rest system, I think it was evaluated as an effort and put into the development pipeline as planned. I also think it is much easier to add classes or races or new tilesets for dungeons or other areas to be explored through DLCs than to redo an entire system of the project.

As for BG3 I have already given up on the project after the first interviews that were done with Larian. I think it will be a surrogate for an RPG made for the mass and not for those who love this genre as I understand it. Then I can be wrong and will wait when some videos come out with the actual gameplay.

I remembered now that in the Kickstarter campaign there was also the distribution of funds with a dislaimer that says:

"While the engine and systems are mostly finished and implemented by now, we still need to fill the game with more content. Success in this Kickstarter will allow us to hire additional writers and level designers, produce more assets and animations, and create a memorable world that will be a joy to explore."

this is the link: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ceresgames/realms-beyond-ashes-of-the-fallen?ref=nav_search&result=project&term=realms%20beyond
Last edited: October 17, 2019, Thursday, 08:24 pm by Night

Archmage

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#1887 October 17, 2019, Thursday, 08:35 pm
I also think it is much easier to add classes or races or new tilesets for dungeons or other areas to be explored through DLCs than to redo an entire system of the project.


I'm right there with you.

Cernu

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#1889 October 17, 2019, Thursday, 10:41 pm
This rest camping system seems great. Reminds me of Pathfinder: Kingmaker (I really enjoyed this one). I think it is important, because some f the game focus seems to be on exploring the wilderness, so a dedicated and precise resting/camping system makes sense for me.
However, I would like it to be like other features: that is to feel a real sense of progression, and getting better, until my party becomes legendary at that. For example, I could understand that my level 1/low skill party would spend some terrible nights, and hardly rest, in the farmfields 1 km from the village, needing to go back to town regularly to get in shape for some more adventures. But I expect my highly skilled party to go for months in the amazonian jungle, and come back unscathed.

As for you, how should this system be relevant ? I mean, if it has no effects, or hardly any, why waste time with it. Should it remove malus ? give temporary bonus ? allow to craft simple recipes ? Give a speed bonus ?
I love semi realistic systems (and based my whole mount and blade warband mod, Rigale, on creating and adding new systems to the game :-) ), a sense of improving (I think skills improvement should matter, and legendary skill levels REALLY feel legendary, not simply going from +20 to +21, this is bullshit IMHO), and semi randomness, especially in world and crafting. My NWN2 PW, frontière (I am french), was built on these premises.

Really looking forward this game, and glad to be on board, and meet you people. Cheers.
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