Author Topic: Baldur's Gate 3

mąlërfjernér

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#1880 October 16, 2019, Wednesday, 03:21 pm
If the story, dialogue, lore, npc interaction, and environment are immersive enough, I will accept any combat system in an rpg. Personally, I prefer RTWP but combat is only one facet of an adventure.

Interesting. Why the RTWP preference?

For starters, the predecessors were RTwP and I believe returning players would love see a familiar feel to the game they remember with a world that makes sense, lore that fits the series, and combat fluidity that the original RTwP provided. As an analagy, I hope this game is the dark souls 3 of the franchise, not the bloodborne or sekiro, if that makes sense. I believe the combat system would have a very impactful effect on how this game nostalgically feels, similar to how diablo 3 completely trashed their game by deviating in almost every way.

mąlërfjernér

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#1881 October 16, 2019, Wednesday, 03:42 pm
This is all obviously my own personal bias, I also hope they don't change the camera angle  :mad:

MadBeard

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#1892 October 18, 2019, Friday, 04:50 pm
I hope they'll do both RtwP and TB. In my opinion they shouldn't do BG3, because except for name, game will have nothing to do with old BGs since that story has finished. It would be better idea for them to do just an D&D game with their own name.
By naming this game BG3 they found themselves in not so envious situation. If they do RtwP, then D&D fans will rage because it's not faithful to D&D. If they do RtwP, then RtwP fans will rage. If they do both TB and RtwP they are in win-win situation.

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daveyd

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#1894 October 21, 2019, Monday, 01:44 pm
I hope they'll do both RtwP and TB. In my opinion they shouldn't do BG3, because except for name, game will have nothing to do with old BGs since that story has finished. It would be better idea for them to do just an D&D game with their own name.
By naming this game BG3 they found themselves in not so envious situation. If they do RtwP, then D&D fans will rage because it's not faithful to D&D. If they do RtwP, then RtwP fans will rage. If they do both TB and RtwP they are in win-win situation.

That would be ideal in theory, but I think there's important reasons so few CRPGs offer a choice between combat modes. For one, it's hard to implement a single combat system that works well in a game, let alone two.  Only RPG which comes to mind in giving you a choice is Arcanum. And while Arcanum is a classic CRPG which has many redeeming qualities, it is almost never praised for its combat systems.   Arcanum combat really pales in comparison to combat in Fallout 1 & 2. Project Resurgence was going to let you toggle the combat system but the developer ran out of money. I don't know if that was because of their attempt to create two combat modes, may have just been developer inexperience / failure to manage their relatively limited funds. 

Also, combat tends to be balanced  differently in RTwP vs turn-based games. People who like RTwP have said hat one of the best things about RTWP is it makes dealing with trash mobs quicker and more bearable than in a turn-based system.  Basically, you can go take a snack break while your party hacks through a pack of gibberlings.   In a TB game (unless it has an auto-resolve button) hacking through a horde of weak enemies that require no tactics becomes tedious fast.   So a well made TB game should not frequently be full of large trash mobs.  Now IMO trash mobs are still rather boring in RTwP (main reason I've never completed BG2). You could design a RTwP game to not have them, but I suspect it would still be a challenge to create combat encounters that work well in both combat modes. RTwP creates some added chaos / pathfinding issues. When you cast a fireball spell in a TB game, you're guaranteed to at least hit your intended target. In RTwP you might miss completely because the enemies won't be in the intended area by the time the spell is cast.  Without really good AI it may be that TB mode ends up being easy mode, which would make TB mode very unsatisfying in my opinion. 

Some claim that when you adjust the auto-pause settings of RTwP games, you can essentially make them play like a TB game. But of course there are still major differences. The "turns" in BG 1 & 2 play out simultaneously. The chaos of characters bumping into eachother / not being where you want them to be is still there. 

I think it would probably be a mistake to try for two combat modes.  If you try to please everyone you may end up pleasing no one. 

But I do agree that making BG3 is already a mistake.  The high expectations from fans will be impossible to meet, the game won't have any connection to the first two games aside from setting and maybe the cameo of a few characters... Presumably all the humans will be dead but perhaps Jaheira, Aerie, or  Viconia are still alive?  I'm sure the game will sell well but it might end up hurting Larian's reputation if they fail to deliver.  And potentially make more long awaited sequels of other classic CRPGs less likely.
Last edited: October 21, 2019, Monday, 01:52 pm by daveyd

MadBeard

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#1901 October 23, 2019, Wednesday, 01:25 pm
@daveyd

Exactly my thoughts. Nevertheless, I'm still excited about the game. And that is just because finally D&D5ed game will be released  :D

Just to digress. There are several games that have both RtwP and TB.  X-com 3: Apocalypse (not an RPG but tactical combat is similar to an RPG), Arcanum, Pillars of Eternity 2 (with patch), Pathfinder: Kingmaker (not the vanilla game but there is a mod).
But I agree. It's difficult to implement both modes and to be interesting and balanced.

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People who like RTwP have said hat one of the best things about RTWP is it makes dealing with trash mobs quicker and more bearable than in a turn-based system.
I never understood this thinking. They like RtwP just to get quicker through something that is not really interesting and shouldn't be in a game in the first place!
Well how about one revolutionary idea: "Don't implement trash/filler fights"  :hahano:

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Presumably all the humans will be dead but perhaps Jaheira, Aerie, or  Viconia are still alive?

Minsc and Coran are alive. Don't know about others.
I'd have to be a warrior, a slave I couldn't be.
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kanisatha

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#1915 October 25, 2019, Friday, 11:20 pm
People who like RTwP have said hat one of the best things about RTWP is it makes dealing with trash mobs quicker and more bearable than in a turn-based system.
I am someone who very strongly prefers RTwP and I have never said this, nor heard very many other RTwP fans say this. RTwP makes ALL combat go quicker, and that is what is a good thing (among many other good things about RTwP).

daveyd

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#1916 October 26, 2019, Saturday, 12:56 am
People who like RTwP have said hat one of the best things about RTWP is it makes dealing with trash mobs quicker and more bearable than in a turn-based system.
I am someone who very strongly prefers RTwP and I have never said this, nor heard very many other RTwP fans say this. RTwP makes ALL combat go quicker, and that is what is a good thing (among many other good things about RTwP).

Well, I've seen people who like RTwP say this on RPG related forums more than once. I wouldn't presume to know what all fans of RTwP like about though. If you have some other reasons you like it feel free to share. 

kanisatha

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#1925 October 28, 2019, Monday, 05:20 pm
People who like RTwP have said hat one of the best things about RTWP is it makes dealing with trash mobs quicker and more bearable than in a turn-based system.
I am someone who very strongly prefers RTwP and I have never said this, nor heard very many other RTwP fans say this. RTwP makes ALL combat go quicker, and that is what is a good thing (among many other good things about RTwP).

Well, I've seen people who like RTwP say this on RPG related forums more than once. I wouldn't presume to know what all fans of RTwP like about though. If you have some other reasons you like it feel free to share.
Ok fair enough. And since you seem to be sincerely interested I will share my perspective.

As already stated, I find combat to be too slow -- and as a result too boring and tedious -- with TB systems. That said, an even more serious issue for me is realism and immersion. I find TB combat to be immersion-breaking, unnatural and jarring, and it breaks the smooth flow of the game. Furthermore, the mechanic used for determining who goes when in any TB game is arbitrary and illogical to me. I always thought initiative in D&D was the worst of these mechanics, and then I played D:OS and came across a mechanic for determining who went when that was even worse than initiative. If it is going to be TB, then at the very least it should be me, the player, who decides the order in which my party members will take their actions. Also, I believe combat should be messy and chaotic, and things should not work out perfectly in a combat situation. TB makes combat formulaic -- you can come up with a formula for each combat situation of exactly what to do with each of your characters and then follow that formula. It takes away any challenge or interest in combat for me. This is what I did in D:OS. It worked very well every single time, and it was so utterly boring. And yes, to use an example that TB fans bring up for why they don't like RTwP, if your mage casts a fireball, but by the time the spell goes off the enemies have moved out of the AoE of the spell thus causing the waste of your spell, that's EXACTLY how it should be. And lastly, I love the dramatic feel of hitting a powerful enemy simultaneously with various types of attacks from multiple party members to take him down. You don't get that feel from TB combat where each attack is an isolated attack by itself and only a small part of taking down that powerful enemy. Eventually, an attack from one of your party members puts your side over the top and the enemy falls, but it is so very anticlimactic and unsatisfying. There's more I can say, but this should get my feelings across pretty well I think.